Sure, anytime someone tries to support what they are saying with actual numbers it is appreciated. To get you started hereis a report from the Bureau of Justice that shows hate crimes have been going down for a decade and have fallen 31% since 2009.
What data sources are you using?
It’s more than just policies. Democrats don’t value the same things I do.
The Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth, and seem to instinctively believe that anything that harms businesses is good for the country.
They have fundamentally different priorities than me in terms of what outcomes we should optimize for and what a fair and free society looks like.
They are authoritarian and dictatorial - identifying what they believe is the right outcome or the right way to do things, and trying to pass laws that mandate it for everyone. Often this is counterproductive and their solution causes more harm than the original harm they were trying to right, not to mention imposes their will on people who disagrees with them.
Democrats are okay with the idea that government and the democratic process should exert strong control and influence over all aspects of a person’s life, in order to shape society towards what they view as a “better” outcome and protect people from perceived harms. I disagree that this is an appropriate function of government.
At times, I agree with Democrats on the general goal of their policy, but because of fundamental differences on principles like these, I find that I strenuously object to their actual proposal (if a concrete proposal exists), or don’t trust that their actual proposal won’t have some damaging side effect.
Now, the Republicans are not perfect on these axes either, but I find myself better aligned with them than the Democrats. I would vote for a hypothetical pro-business Democrat in a second, or a pro-intellectual Republican. But these don’t exist - and if it’s Trump vs. Bernie, I’m voting for Trump.
Because they will tolerate or even endorse <insert bad Trump thing here> as long as he delivers on <insert policy they like>. They care about <insert policy they like here> more than <insert bad Trump thing here>. Is this really so hard? You don’t have to like it or relate to it, and can certainly rail against it, but that’s it in a nutshell. Trump is a pulsating middle finger to Democrats, but that’s just a bonus. The stars just happened to align in a way that got Trump in there to do that. They would happily take a Romney, McCain, etc., AS LONG AS they got the shit they wanted done. As it turns out, so-called moderate Republicans don’t have what it takes to win lately.
This really isn’t it at all. More likely, step 2 is someone (such as yourself) insists that it’s simple Hatfield vs McCoy tribalism. Someone like myself makes an effort to debunk this false reduction, which involves pointing out that Trump supporters believe that things aren’t real.
At that point the conservative careens off onto some argumentative sidetrack because they’re unable to concede this simple truth: Trump supporters support him because they believe things that are imaginary and false, and they hold irrational grievances.
They have reasons. They have no rational reasons. That’s why these threads always play out like this. You can’t reason people out of positions they didn’t reason themselves into.
I really enjoy reading posts like these because it makes me think a serious discussion can be had. You touched on some key points that I think deserve a more involved conversation. I hope you will stick around to have it.
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Do you think that some of the world’s largest corporations should receive subsidies and tax loopholes at the expense of the tax payers?
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What does a free society look like to you?
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Which specific policies and solutions have resulted in specifically negative outcomes? Which specific laws have caused more harm than good?
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If not government, which institutions do you view as being better at protecting people from harm?
You’re wrong, he’s done both. Now that that has been settled, I’ll assume your denial is based on your support of these policies, similar to how the right-wing belief that waterboarding isn’t torture is based on their support of the practice rather than their encyclopedic understand of interrogation techniques. Glad we could have this productive conversation. Bye.
That’s weird, because I thought Obama was supposed to be so divisive.
BTW, those statistics stop in 2017. Anything newer?
Here’s one that says they reached a 15 year high in 2018: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/us/hate-crimes-fbi-report.html
What does support even mean here? What action am I supposed to take?
I don’t like Trump, for many of the reasons you all have listed here. I wish we had a competent Republican in charge. But I’m not going to turn into a Democrat just because Trump is an idiot. Trump or not, I still support Republican policies in general, and I want to see them enacted. What do you expect me to do?
Sigh Or people conveniently ignore things that aren’t Hatfield and McCoyisms. Like specific policies and agendas. Is stacking the courts with conservative judges a “Hatfield and McCoyism?” Is “decimating institutions” (i.e. making the government smaller - there are mainstream republicans want to eliminate ENTIRE departments) a “Hatfield and McCoyism”? Is being “anti-choice” a “Hatfield and McCoyism?” Is being hardline on 2A issues a “Hatfield and McCoyism?” Is wanting strong borders and anti-illegal-immigration a “Hatfield and McCoyism?” You can argue that wanting those things is “irrational” but that’s just, like, your opinion man.
Look, Trump tells Republicans what they want to hear. And he sometimes even oversteps that. For example, we all know that Trump couldn’t care less about abortion (and probably a lot of other things). Yet early on in his presidency, when asked about it, he said he thought women who have abortions should go to jail. He had to get corrected on that, as Republicans want the doctors held responsible. He is imagining what Republicans want almost as much as democrats do.
Eschew fascism. Supporting racist policies for the sake of a tax cut or a desire to let factories poison the water is no better than supporting racist policies because one is a racist.
Can you explicate which Republican policies you support that you think Democrats don’t also support?
Hillary Clinton was basically an Eisenhower Republican, after all. When it comes down to cases, Republicans and Democrats agree about a lot of things. The economy and the military should be strong. It is in the best interest of the country to maintain American leadership in international affairs. People should be free to do as they please, although shitting in someone else’s water supply is bad. Law and order are good.
You know, that kind of thing.
So what specific Republican policies do you support that you think Democrats don’t?
Here’s what the OP is asking:
Nothing about “I hate him but I love his policies” or “I see his faults, but I’ll always vote Republican.” No, it’s specific to Trump and his, uh, foibles. There are still a few Trump supporters on the board, so maybe they can chime in.
I’m not a Trump supporter. I’d like to think that if a politician I supported lied so blatantly at me, I would no longer support him. I was really shaken after Clinton went on TV and said he did not have sex with that woman, and that turned out to be a lie. My respect for him plummeted and I think I would have voted for someone else if given the chance in the next election.
For a party that got all het up when Obama wore a tan suit, current Trump supporters are certainly OK with debasing the office of the presidency now.
To me, Trump is uniquely bad, and that is evident with the number of prominent conservatives that have come out as Never-Trumpers. I don’t remember that happening with any other candidate for either party.
It varies, whatever sources I can see on the internet. I have noticed the algorithms like to feed me things to pump my blood up, so I try to log out of the various sources and clear cookies to see how things change or occasionally like blatantly partisan pieces on both sides of the aisle to shake things up. It is amazing how insidious the AI is in feeding partisan material.
Most of my news comes from newspapers and news organizations: (in order of how often I read stuff) AP and Reuters, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and then down market newspapers like the Tribune or the LA Times. Broadcast news (which I don’t get much of) I get from mostly the BBC. For opinion, I will read almost anything sent to me and will typically only dislike it if it isn’t well thought out. I like Reason (almost all), some stuff from Slate (about half), much of the Economist, WSJ (most), some in NYT, some of the American Conservative. Really, what turns me off on a source if it believes it’s shit doesn’t stink. If you read Huffpo or stuff like newmax, you will see they are completely incapable of finding fault with their side. A lot of the Fox opinion folks and the MSNBC folks fall into this camp also.
How about you?
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No.
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A free society is one that values and protects everyone’s ability to make their own choices and decisions, as long as those decisions don’t harm others.
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A great example is the 80/20 rule in the Affordable Care Act. Democrats decided that the big, evil insurance companies were making too much profit. So they decided to legislate that insurance companies were simply not allowed to make more than 20% profit from insurance premiums. The result? Insurance companies now have an incentive to increase costs, because it allows them to charge higher premiums and thus make a higher profit.
Another example: fuel economy regulations. Democrats decided that they wanted to reduce fuel consumption. So they constructed a formula in the CAFE standard determining how much fuel a vehicle is allowed to consume, based on its overall size. The result - manufacturers started building larger, less-efficient vehicles because these were easier to hit CAFE targets.
Student loans - the entire student loan and cost of education crisis was created by government’s well-intentioned meddling in the student loan market.
- Oh, I think it’s appropriate for government to protect people from harm - but I’m mostly concerned with physical harm, whereas many Democratic policies are motivated by concern for economic harm, emotional harm, etc. “My landlord raised my rent” is not a harm.
Give me a break. You are arguing that, other than Trump, the Republican and Democratic parties are the same? I’m not sure what I could write in response here that would enlighten you.
In many domains, what I support is the Republican party’s lack of a policy - the position that government does not have to step in and solve every problem. As an example - I do not think the government should regulate fuel economy in transportation, or the efficiency of household appliances.
So much for “rational conservative”
If you don’t want to engage, so be it.
Agreed.
Here is a chart of growth of healthcare costs year by year 1960-2018. The ACA is reported to have slowed the growth, not increased it. Is this not correct? Also, how does it make sense for them to raise the cost of a procedure? Can you explain this better?
Even larger vehicles are now far more fuel efficient than small vehicles in the past. A Ford Explored is equipped with an eco-boost 4 cyl engine. Americans like large cars. If they liked small cars, we’d be more like much of Europe, with higher standards than us, driving smaller clean diesels.
Don’t know enough to comment.
Well, affordable housing is a human right. So there is significant harm in government not regulating that for very low income individuals and families. It seems to yield positive returns with respect to education, health and welfare of children, and welfare of elders. Ability for adults to find and keep a job. I don’t know what you mean by “emotional harm”.
Much of this is demonstrably untrue. What Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth? All the Democrats I know are strongly capitalist. Sure, there are some nut jobs like Bernie (who is not a Democrat) or AOC, but the Republicans have a couple of actual Nazis that I could point to; are you saying that they represent the entire party? Capitalism has done more to bring people out of poverty than any system on earth, and I would say the vast majority of Democrats would agree to that. We are Americans after all.
What Democrats do want is a social safety net. They don’t believe that their fellow citizens should be left to die in the street because they can’t afford healthcare. They also don’t think it is OK when a corporation’s right to make money trumps a person’s rights to live a healthy and prosperous life (thus their stances on environmental regulations).
I agree that Democrats can be authoritarian and dictatorial, but no more than the right. I think both of the parties (or sides) have had problems with this going back to the nations founding.
As far as exerting strong control over peoples lives, the Republican party has in their platform that porn should be illegal. They would force my daughter to carry a fetus to term because of their (essentially religious) belief that life begins at conception. They will not let my terminally ill father who lives every day in excruciating pain die with dignity. Hell, they won’t even let me smoke a joint. If they had their way they also won’t let my sister marry the love of her life (who is also a woman) or raise their child together. How can you get more controlling than that?
But you are right, the Democrats do want to exert control on peoples lives and I will agree with you that much of the control that they want to exert is bad. But Republicans have the same sins and to me many of the sins they have are much worse. The government has no place in people’s bedrooms or in their family decisions, but Republicans have no problem justifying this interference. As a civil libertarian, I think the Democrats want to protect my freedoms more than the Republicans do.
The notable exception is with guns. Personally I am pro-gun and for the same reasons that many on the right are: I believe we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. While Republicans seem to be afraid of the federal government (Obama’s coming to take your guns!), I am afraid of the police that seem to be OK with shooting you at the drop of a hat and have no duty to serve or protect. Luckily, I think that Democrats can’t do shit here (and they don’t really seem to be trying that hard) as the supreme court has spoken. Heller and McDonald were pretty clear that owning a gun is a constitutional right. I haven’t seen the Democrats chipping away at this like the Republicans with Roe.
Many times I agree with some Republican goals (like their supposed fiscal conservatism), but how can I trust that they will actually work toward these goals? The Republicans in congress have abandoned PayGo rules whenever it was convenient. Trump cut taxes and drove deficits through the roof during a time of prosperity when we should have be reducing the deficit and debt. All the Republican Presidents since Reagan have sucked in the area with exception of H. W. Bush, and he lost his re-election because of it (read my lips!).
I would vote for a pragmatist Republican in a heartbeat, but we haven’t had one since H.W. Bush. Well maybe Romney; I liked him but thought Obama was doing OK and deserved a second term. If it came down to Trump vs. Bernie, I would probably vote for Bernie because I think another 4 years of Trump would irrevocably change this country for the worse and I don’t think Bernie could get much done. Luckily, it seems that this will not be the choice. I would vote for Biden in a second over Trump even though I think he will be an uninspired President.
We don’t need a revolution, and we don’t need to tear the government down. Trump is a fucking disaster.
Recent results include the following:
Vox Reports: Hate crime up after Trump rallies.
Brookings had this to say:
So while we’re not at 2009 levels, you cannot not say that hate crime has not increased during the Trump presidency.