Okay, I declare that I don’t support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?
I feel like the answer you’re all looking for is “Vote for a Democrat”. Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
How much racism would be too much racism?
Vote to remove fascists from power. When you have two parties and one is is composed of fascists, it’s the duty of a responsible citizen to vote for the other party.
So long as you understand that aiding fascists without enthusiasm is no different than aiding them with it. One doesn’t have to actively want to ban Muslims to prove one is a bigot who doesn’t really believe in freedom of religion; merely allowing them to be banned because those doing it are giving one one’s way is just as bad. Maybe worse.
I, for one, do NOT feel that one has to be afflicted with the non-existent “Trump Derangement Syndrome” to realize what a horrible choice for Prez Hair Drumpf was in 2016 and what a horrible “president” he has turned out to be. And if one is to paint ALL of us who are anti-Drumpf as having “Trump Derangement Syndrome” then that person could at least have the decency to come up with a name for whatever has “afflicted” Republicans in their fawning attitude towards and unwavering support of that delinquent. Me? I kinda prefer “Trump Suck-Off Disease” for those on the “right” if they’re gonna persist in referring to people like me as having “Trump Derangement Syndrome.”
We pinned the needle on expletives a while back. We had no words left to distinguish how bad Trump was compared to George W Bush and McCain.
Yes, Trump is extraordinarily bad. But we pinned the needle on outrage a while back. We had nothing left when something truly outrageous came along. Nothing but tears.
Absolute, just wanted to say thanks for your articulate and calmly-stated viewpoint. I appreciate people who can give rational alternative perspectives.
You’re saying the elements on the left that conservatives object to are the mainstream ones found in the Democratic Party platform. That’s what bullshit. I’m throwing the same shit back at you. At least I recognised it and highlighted it as sarcasm.
Let’s try this again. Republicans voted for Trump in 2016 because they wanted a Republican in the White House. And for the last three-plus years the general response to that from liberals in the United States has been scathing, insulting denunciation. My cite? This thread. Now liberals are asking Republicans why they haven’t seen the error of their ways. But they’re phrasing the question, going by the OP, as “How are you not embarrassed to say you support him?” That’s not an attempt to ask an honest question. That’s an insult. I don’t think the OP actually wanted to know why Republicans are forting up around Donald Trump. But I think it’s an interesting question. I think “rightist” Republicans view American politics as an us vs them situation. The majority of discourse from the “them” side reinforces that view because it comes across as condemnation, if not outright attacks. I don’t believe it’s only the left that’s being polarising. But if you’re asking why Trump supporters aren’t moving away from Trump, my answer is that they’ve got nowhere worthwhile, in their view, to move too. “Come join us you idiot” isn’t a very effective recruiting message.
This statement to me is irrational. Trump supporters are Republicans, and they agree with the Republican platform. I just took a look at the highlights. About Our Party | GOP I don’t want to turn this thread into an evaluation of Republican policy, but there’s nothing imaginary or false there, whether or not you disagree with them. The issue is whether Republicans should support the standard bearer for those policies. Some don’t. Some hold their noses, but do so in spite of reservations, choosing policy over personality. Some like Trump. I imagine most of them back Trump because he won. Some are the same set of people who like the “heel” in professional wrestling. And sure, some of them like Trump because he’s sticking it to the liberal side that they have grievances with. But just because you disagree with somebody’s position or motivations, it doesn’t make them imaginary and false.
It rather sounds like racism is not a deal-breaker for you. Perhaps you could explain what other preferences you have that are more important than racism to you.
I think support for the Bigot-in-Chief all boils down to bigots loving someone who hates the same people that they do and shows that he can hurt the people that they think need to be hurt. That’s the only ideology that matters to supporters of Sherbert Hoover.
I’ve said it before: Trump delivers the goods. He’s loading the bench with conservatives who will swing the gavel for decades. He’s cutting taxes for the billionaire class that controls America. He race baits for the racists. He checks all the boxes. Even those who don’t like his race baiting and know damn well he’s not Christian love the fact that he goes out of his way to appeal to Christians, and that’s the bottom line. Republicans don’t necessarily care if you’re really a Republican; just deliver the goods at the end of the day, and all is well.
And to Velocity’s point, maybe he’s onto something. I don’t necessarily care if Joe Biden’s record suggests he’s an inauthentic progressive if I can convince myself to believe that he would pander to progressive interests and causes enough to deliver on at least some of the things I care about. That also explains why Repubs may not be that jazzed up about Pence and why a lot of progressives aren’t that smitten with Bernie: it’s hard to get that excited about a candidate if you suspect he can’t deliver the goods, for whatever reason - whether he’s too dull (Pence) or too radical (Bernie). People want shit done.
Of course it’s not a deal breaker for him (if he’s white). If he saves money on taxes and small business regulation gutting, if he bans abortion, it’s all good - Trump delivers the groceries to the front door. If you’re an Asian, Hispanic, or Black rich guy, then you need to think about whether the goods outweigh the race baiting.
I know you* think* you’re providing insight. But all you’re doing is stating the obvious. Everybody here realizes there are a variety of reasons why ~63M voted for Trump. We get it. The argument you keep avoiding or refusing to accept is that the justification many of them often use are based on ignorance, bigotry, racism, resentment and outright lies. The fact that a border wall needed building was imaginary and false. The fact that Mexico would pay for it was a lie. The fact that immigration was a threat to America was imaginary. The fact that the world would no longer be laughing at America was false. On and on. They all believed it, or chose to overlook the absurdity and bold faced lies for short term self interests of lower taxes and sticking it to the libs/dems. And for all but the wealthy, even lower taxes was a lie. But each in his/her own way was, and remains, complicit in electing and supporting Trump. Now some, I’m sure, are very good people.
It should not need reminding that Republicans had a choice of no less than 16 other actual Republicans in the field of 2016 GOP candidates. Many of whom were very qualified for government work and had real Republican/Conservative creds.
But did the Republican voters pick one of them? Did they fuck.
Yes, I am rejecting the argument that Trump voters made the decision to vote for him “based on ignorance, bigotry, racism, <snip> and outright lies”. I snipped resentment because I do think that was a big factor. Getting the outright lies out of the way first, of course Trump had a lot of bombast, some of it untruthful. Some people may have believed it, some people may have overlooked it. Trump’s bombast probably helped him win the election. So what? US Presidential elections are largely a popularity contest. You want to demonise the people who responded to Trump’s bombast? That’s like demonising the circus-goers who responded to PT Barnum.
To your other points, I reject the idea that a majority, or even a significant minority, of Trump voters had malevolent intentions. America had largely the same set of voters in 2016 that it had in 2012. Are you saying that all the ignorant, bigoted and racist voters stayed home in 2012 because they didn’t want to vote for Romney? Why, anti-Mormonism? For that matter, I was hearing a lot in 2016 that Obama would have won if he could have run for a third term. Are you exempting the Obama voters who voted for Trump from your categorisation of being ignorant, bigoted and racist? How about the non-white voters? If we keep chipping away at it, I think we’ll find that the voters you dislike who you want to label as ignorant, bigoted and racist are simply white conservative voters. I think you’re putting affronting labels on a demographic that doesn’t vote the way you do. Yes, I reject that.
As to the OP, and why Trump voters are continuing to support him, I’ll repeat myself one last time and state that my answer is the polarisation of American politics. If you’ve got a better answer, feel free to provide it. But if your best answer is one that simply demonises Trump supporters, then it’s a pretty shoddy one.
Obama was divisive but presidents have very little impact on specific types of crime.
Those are the latest statistics I could find.
The FBI statistics are based on reporting by law enforcement while the Bureau of Justice statistics are based on survey data. In most types of crime that distinction does not matter much. However in measuring hate crimes it matters a great deal.
Historically most jurisdictions did not have a separate category for hate crimes until recently. As a result, those jurisdictions did not report them to the FBI. Thus the FBI’s cumulative numbers do not represent the whole country but only those who jurisdictions who collected the statistics and reported them. Since more jurisdictions have started reporting the cumulative totals have grown which tells us nothing about rates.
The BJS survey data has remained consistent and does not rely on jurisdictions keeping track. They are the only statistics that can be used to track rates and trends.
The polarization is due to fundamental core moral principles. Demonstrably, one side wants a more just society while the other wan’t the good old days back when whites felt better about themselves and minorities of all stripes felt much worse. The fact that as time passed more and more minorities were achieving equal rights, made racist (mostly whites) feel resentful. They’ve said it in as many words by passing laws that attempt to restrict LGBTQ rights and women’s access to abortion. So when god finally saw fit to send them a bigot that was as inarticulate and loudmouthed as they are, they no longer felt ashamed. They felt empowered because he gave them the permission to be who they are. And they each came out motivated to vote in 2016 in the way that they were not in 2012. By about 4M more votes in fact. So you can reject whatever doesn’t suit your narrative. Makes no difference. Given the opportunity to vote for 16 other more qualified, arguably more mainstream GOP candidates, they chose the loudest, dumbest, bigot who spoke to their heart of hearts. They could have stayed home if they didn’t want to endorse him. Plenty of conscionable conservatives did just that, or held their nose and voted for the smart lady in the pantsuit. But not the MAGATS. And that is how ended up where we are.
Even the Republicans must have noticed the SNL skit that passed for a press conference yesterday. The folks in front of the cameras had a few very large charts but were unable to explain them beyond their introductory statements. The funny part was when Trump stepped in to ‘clarify’ everything and really screwed it up.
As asahi pointed out above, we have pegged the needle on criticism. But the Republicans are pegging the needle with their public display of incompetence. Last week Cuomo’s model predicted that the total cases would be 180,000 on the 31st of March. That was the exact number. The crux of the issue yesterday was that the models are not predictive. But, events will match the models if we do not take appropriate action. Indeed events are now tracking the models. In yesterday’s presser the press was asking ‘what action is needed to avoid the virus tracking the model’. None of the clowns on camera could even frame the question let alone present an answer.
The reason we have a federal government is to allocate communal resources to meet the common needs of the nation. It is not to satisfy the goals of some political philosophy. We are in serious trouble due to a complete lack of leadership.
So, back to the OP - can one or more right wingers please tell me how they defend the floundering clowns I watched on TV yesterday!
Oh yeah - if the curve does not flatten, next Wednesday the number will be 2.5 million.
The study showing a correlation between hate crimes and Trump rallies was replicatedand they found that the correlation was even stronger between Clinton rallies and hate crimes. The likely explanation is that political rallies are held in counties with lots of people in them and counties with higher populations have higher total crimes.
The article said that those crimes are surging in the big cities, and especially againt Jews and Hispanics. Do you think big cities are among those jurisdictions that didn’t report previously?
Obviously, Trump has been targeting Hispanics in his attacks on immigrants, and even on Hispanic judges. He and his administration have also re-tweeted and referenced white-supremacist materials, which may explain the increasing attacks on Jewish people.
Whatever. This is off-topic for this thread, as is all the Republican and Democratic bashing going on. This thread is specifically about people who support Trump, not the Republicans. Bill Kristol, a staunch conservative, can’t stand Trump. Joe Walsh, not the guitar player, constantly bashes Trump and is working hard against his election. Peter Wehner, Bret Stephens, David Brooks – all prominent conservatives who can’t stand the guy. You can be a Republican and a conservative and love all the new judges and lower taxes and smaller government and lower regulations, and still say that Trump has been a giant stain on the office of the presidency.
It’s been a long time since we had a president who praised white supremacists as “good people”, who spent years spreading an evidence-free and racist conspiracy theory, and whose administration advocated deliberately harming migrant children and families for deterrent purposes, so this one may actually have more impact on hate crimes than most.