Would anyone like to buy a teenager, cheap? (long)

I can’t, as a single 25 year old who likes listening to Focus on the Family and who happens to know people with kids, arbitrarily judge you on your parenting skills without more information:

What’s her curfew?
Can she kiss her boyfriend? (Not that she sounds terribly interested in doing that)
Is she allowed computer time by herself, without supervision?
Can she lock her bedroom door?
Can she see R-rated movies?
Is she learning to drive?
Does she have a job? Can she have a job? What about volunteer work?
Has she ever failed, or do you keep rescuing her?
When you’re at Renn Faires each weekend, is it strictly mother-daughter, or does she run off with her friends?
Does she dress up? Does she put a lot of time and energy into Fairing? Or her other hobbies, like choir?
Is she generally social? (Sounds like she is, with both you and her friends)

A couple of people have commented that she sounds more like 11 or 12 than 15. She’s only a freshman–She may just be developing slowly. She may just be a boring, loving, slacker. The next two years should be fun.

It’s funny, I came in here to tell you that I did the same thing all the way through high school and ended up at, like, 42 in the class instead of valedictorian where I really should have been, and it was because… um, it was because? I got to that part and I swear, if you’d been my mother I’d have looked down and started playing in the dirt with the toe of my shoe and said “I dunno…” It’s been years, and I still have no idea. I did a lot better in college. Much better in grad school. I just coasted in high school; great test scores, shitty homework average. Hit college with 26 hours of AP credit or so, having turned almost none of my damned homework in. Seems to be a common experience. Got into my first choice school, if that makes you feel any better.

I didn’t do drugs, I didn’t even have a boyfriend until I was 18, I didn’t have some exciting social life; I just didn’t bother to do my homework for Some Unknown Reason. If my kid does the same thing it’s going to be locked in the basement for the rest of it’s natural life.

Why? Is getting through graduate school such a bad goal? :smiley:

Again, from a non-parent’s point of view (I’m a university student):

To me pretty much the whole of your second post gives off “overbearing mother” vibes. You take her and her boyfriend to the cinema and watch at the screen door when the film’s due to end to make sure they come out of there (to me that in particular translates straight into "I don’t trust you not to do things with him that you shouldn’t)
You keep count of exactly how many times she has seen her boyfriend.
You spy on what she does on the internet.
When she goes to a concert (the Bowling 4 Soup one) it’s with her Mom. Has she been to a concert without you in tow?

Basically, what John Carter said. It sounds to me like you treat her more like she’s 11 or 12 than 15.

You might find this description of only children interesting. I’m a fan of this author, although his views are more opinions than science. However if it resonates…

Personally I find family dynamics fascinating. My sister is a psychologist & we discuss these things all the time - our family was quite troubled.

Your response to this is so intriguing. It’s great to see a parent who is willing to take a look at themselves, but the way you word this says a lot. I think you’re really hard on yourself, and I’d bet your daughter has this habit of thought as well. I bet you pretty much do things right most of the time and you work hard to achieve this. And it’s so admirable, but at the same time, so intimidating.

Perhaps flunking a class is the best thing that could happen for your daughter. It could be the adolescent equivalent of making mudpies. She could find out that the world won’t end if she bombs at something, that she can make a huge mess and survive. Has she ever seen you make a major flub? How painful will it be for you if she does fail?

Letting her fall on her face (a bit) might be a place to start.

What’s her curfew? Since she’s never asked to go anywhere just “out”, she doesn’t technically HAVE a curfew. On school nights, she gets sent to bed around 9:30, but she rarely goes to sleep before 10:00. Sleepovers, there’s no bedtime, and they’re usually still giggling and talking 'til the wee smalls.

Can she kiss her boyfriend? (Not that she sounds terribly interested in doing that)
Well, he has kissed her, in front of me even, but it’s been a little buss on the cheek deal. Since they only really see each other at school, and the school issues detentions for public displays of affection, and she hasn’t gotten one. they’re PROBABLY not cramming their tongues down one another’s throats with any regularity, anyway.

Is she allowed computer time by herself, without supervision? She was until I happened to wander past her one evening when she said she was up to her ears in biogenesis research and I busted her surfing for photos of Jhonen Vasquez. I don’t have a problem with her surfing for photos of Jhonen Vasquez, but hey, don’t BS me and tell me you’re up to your ears in biology which is why you can’t work on your algebra, and then get caught playing.

**Can she lock her bedroom door? **She keeps it closed, and we knock and we don’t intrude, but she has been called on the carpet for the fact that it’s a disaster. I don’t mind the taped-up photos of Jhonen Vasquez, but the food on the floor shit is ridiculous. I had a painter here to do an estimate and I had to show him her room. It was embarrassing to say the least, but because school is the issue these days, I didn’t say anything other than, “You might consider cleaning that pigsty every now and then.”

Can she see R-rated movies? She prefers scary movies, many of which are rated R. This is a roll-eyes issue for me - I don’t get the appeal of scaring the shit out of oneself, but if she wants to and she doesn’t end up in MY bed afterward (which she doesn’t usually, the sole exception being after she say The Grudge, and I let her) I don’t care. She hasn’t shown any interest in seeing “sexy” films yet.

Is she learning to drive? Not yet, but we are signing her up for private driver’s ed next fall. Her birthday falls in February, which somehow precludes her taking the class in school until her junior year (she’ll be 16 in February of her sophomore year.)

Does she have a job? Can she have a job? What about volunteer work? She’ll be working Sundays this summer for the band, as I mentioned. I’d prefer that she NOT take a “real” job while her grades are already in the toilet, but to be honest, the question hasn’t yet come up. She has done some volunteer work - a six-week stint as a “Volunteen” at the local library, and her best friend volunteers one evening a month at the soup kitchen, and she usually goes to help too.

Has she ever failed, or do you keep rescuing her? Not in school so far. I can’t THINK of an instance where I rescued her from anything.

When you’re at Renn Faires each weekend, is it strictly mother-daughter, or does she run off with her friends? She’s been attending the faire with me since she was about six, and she knows the place like a second home. Additionally, I don’t worry about her much there because just about everybody knows her, too, and knows me well enough that if something WERE to happen, someone would be able to find me pretty quick. So yes, she goes off, on her own or with friends, pretty regularly.

Does she dress up? Does she put a lot of time and energy into Fairing? Or her other hobbies, like choir? She does dress up, and has asked me to make her some new garb, which I am doing. I wouldn’t say she puts a lot of energy into much of anything, but she does spend time cartooning (she’s quite good at that anime style stuff) and writing stories (which she shares, and there’s nothing overtly “weird” about them that would send up flags, other than most of them seem to be vaguely about vampires.) She participates in choir concerts and has tried out for a play - and she didn’t seem too upset about not getting a part.

Is she generally social? (Sounds like she is, with both you and her friends) I’d say yes, excepting that general anti-social teenagery stuff (again, vampires and underground comic stuff.)

On preview: bluecanary - I see where you’re getting that. Let me 'splain. She’ll say, for instance, she wants to go see The Grudge with her boyfriend. The movie starts at 3:00, can I drop her off? Sure thing. What time does she want me to pick her up? She’ll say, “well, it’s over at 5:30 and (the boyfriend)'s dad is picking him up.” I just go back to pick her up around then. It’s actually fairly coincidental that I see her come out of the theater. I HAVE offered to take them to McDonald’s or wherever after, but she hasn’t taken me up on it. And keeping track of the dating - well, I find it kind of weird that she’s going out with a boy who doesn’t generally ask to take her on dates and who basically only sees her at school, so knowing the number of dates is more related to the fact that there have been so few.

re. the part of your post above directed to me:

Sorry, but that’s some distance from what you said in your post on the first page:

(bolding mine)

Fair point. I did say that. It was a slight exaggeration, but since I did say it, I’ll defend it. I don’t stopwatch the theater, noting that the movie ends at 5:31 and “you better be out that door at 5:32.” But most of the movies are about two, two-and-a-half hours long, and there are a couple restaurants in the parking lot. I wouldn’t object if she said, “and then we’re going to IHOP after to sit around and drink coffee and talk,” but again, it hasn’t come up. One time, she did call me on my cell just after I dropped her off to tell me that the movie they wanted to see was sold out, and could they buy tickets for the next showing and go to McDonald’s until then, and my only comment on that was, “Do you have enough cash for McDonald’s or should I drop off $5 for you?”

We DO talk about the movies she sees, but not in a “I’m doing psychological research on your reactions” kind of way. More like, “So Anchorman sucked, huh? Was it better or worse than Dodgeball?” way.

I also wanted to comment on the internet spying charge. I plead semi-guilty: I didn’t check up on her until AFTER I noticed she was surfing for Jhonen photos instead of doing her homework, and AFTER she said, “Well, I was just taking a short break, but I can’t find any information on biogenesis.” In an attempt to help her BEFORE losing my marbles that night, I did a Google search on biogensis and immediately got over 100 hits. THAT was when I checked her Google history and found gazillions of visits to Neopets, searches for Jhnone, a few actors, visits to imdb.com, deviantart, and Live Journal and NO searches on biogenesis. And THEN I lost my marbles.

Thanks for answering my questions so honestly. I think by your answers that you’re far too controlling. She’s 15. I don’t think having a bedroom that’s a disaster is worth fighting over. Is it a territorial issue, or fear of tetanus?

The same with the biogenesis–She sounds like she’s only allowed to use her computer for homework, and nothing else. This seems very restrictive.

Despite the overbearingness, it sounds like she has a very unstructured home life. Add structure. Compartmentalize times and zones. Setting ground rules is far better than flying off the handle at something minor your daughter did (like checking IMDB when supposed to being studying), and catching her by surprise. Losing your marbles over stuff like that can be traumatizing for her, and may make her insecure. Don’t inflict punishment because you’re mad/disappointed. Approach it as rational, corrective behavior.

Per dating/getting out more, don’t wait for her to ask. Make suggestions. You’re a lot more hip than she is. If you spring a “Why don’t you get ice cream after the movie and I’ll pick you up an hour later?” idea onto her, she might think you’re supermom.

She doesn’t seem sheltered, which, kudos!

Definitely read the books people are recommending. How does your own childhood compare?

Cartooning is an excellent trade skill.

Which must be a terrible disappointment to Ice. . . no, I won’t go there.
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She’s 15, a freshman in high school, a very bright kid, and lately I find myself wanting to thwack her upside the head with a Nerf bat. yadayadayada
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I’ll have to go through this thread gleaning some answers because I have the same problem with my fifteen-year-olds. From the sound of her answers, though, I’ll refer you to what The Master has to say about Passive-Aggression and you’ll see there is a reason it shares initials with Pain in the Ass.

I don’t want to pick nits, but I don’t CARE if her bedroom door is closed. And it IS fear of tetanus, as well as rabies, scabies and various other disgusting things. I don’t nag her about her room, I just mentioned that it was flat-out disgusting. SHE has to sleep in it, I only have to be embarrassed when the painter comes.

No… she WAS allowed to use the computer for anything at all, until she said she was struggling to find info for homework and it turned out she wasn’t. NOW she is only allowed to use it for homework, and I’m not lifting that. Honesty is a vital function of my family (and it does not preclude privacy, lest anyone take it that way). Fuck up if you must, but do not lie to me.

OK, I am not seeing the lie as being minor. Let me recap: she wasn’t doing her algebra homework because she was allegedly doing internet research on biology. It was getting close to bedtime, she’d been online for over an hour and I walked by and saw cartoons. I honestly don’t see my reaction as being irrational here.

That, I can do.

My childhood? It’s probably best if we don’t go there. I’m sure that I’m permanently damaged and I’m either overcompensating or undercompensating, but I’d prefer to focus on THIS kid. That said, I was abused physically, mentally and sexually and lived in a constant state of fear from age 10 to 18.

Bah, the dog ate my reply.

Lying is a big deal, check. I’ll push the literature some more. Lying and Dishonesty seems like a good place to start, and has some further resources at the bottom.

I’m sorry to hear about your childhood. You’ve always been one of the more well-adjusted grown up posters here, so “permanently damaged” hadn’t entered into my train of thought.

Sounds like you’re doing a good job, LifeOnWry. A bit overbearing, but I don’t think it would explain her performance in school.

I’d say the ball is in her court. It might be worth it to embrace that and tell her as much. Personally, I would tell her, “Seeing as how what I’ve done hasn’t affected you much, I’m going to drop it and let you do your own thing. It’s your responsibility now. I’ll always be around if you want help - you don’t even have to need it - and I can help you an incredible amount… but it’s up to you.”

I’m a smart adult, and I was a smart kid. I hated school. It was boring. It was mind-numbing. And did I mention, it was boring?

In eighth grade, I studied hard and got really good results. Confronted with my parents’ “You got 98%?!?!?! What the hell happened to the other 2%??” attitude, I didn’t see any point in continuing the hard work. So I just stopped. When my maths teacher asked me where my homework was, I told her I didn’t do it. She tried punishing me and guilting me, but eventually she gave up. Most of the other teachers didn’t notice I wasn’t doing the homework. Come exam time, I’d cram the major points, and end up doing OK on the exam. The only subject I ever failed was Home Ec. I’d “forget” to bring ingredients for cooking class. Big deal.

My parents refused to even consider the idea that I didn’t want to go to university. Therefore I never had any actual choice about it. The only choice was what degree I would do, and even that was (mostly) dictated to me (computer science, because I had an obvious talent for it). And, because it was a CS degree, that dictated the high school subjects I had to do. The only choice I had was between French and “Citizenship Education”. The rest (Maths I, Maths II, Physics, Chemistry, English) were compulsory if I wanted to get into the degree.

Despite never doing any homework, I still managed to average 86.5% percent in grade 12. It was enough to get me into that damned CS degree. So, if it’s enough, why bother excelling? No-one gives a good goddamn about the score after the fact! The only time highschool grades matter one iota is when it comes to trying to get into uni. And they barely matter if you don’t want to go to uni. Out of interest, is your daughter planning to go to uni because she really wants it? Or because she thinks she has to because you really want it? Not that I’m accusing you of this, of course.

Max.

I don’t think the Teens are. I think we are. Well, you guys, ay any rate.

High School is extremely abnormal. It’s more like a prison than a school. Honestly, it’s close to being the worst way you could teach or thing you could do to Teens. It’s not built to deal with the way most people learn. And its often trying to teach the wrong stuff, which no one uses and will be forgotten and soon as the test is done.

High School rewards the wrong set of people as often as not, academically. Honestly, many college classes are far better, which is why, I think, you see so many people who bloom in college. It’s not that they’ve changed so much as the system changed. High School blows, and its time to erase it.

I’m another story like this. As a kid, I was the smartest kid in class and never had any troubles with my grades. Then, suddenly, as an eighth grader, I started pulling C’s and D’s and even failing classes. I was cagey and defensive when confronted with questions about school. In early high school, my grades were still poor and only picked up to a mediocre level in later grades. But then in college I did excellently and graduated with honors.

Why?

First off, there is a desire for control. I still remember the days when I had to ask permission to go to the bathroom, where every moment of my time was accounted for, where my most mundane actions were up for scrutiny. It is just as maddening for a smart kid as it is for adults. Imagine not having any control over your time or space. Imagine if you can even have the clothes you put on in the morning vetoed before you walk out the door. You’d just about go insane, right? I quickly figured out that schoolwork was the one part of my life I could control- after all, they wern’t going to outright kick a bright kid out of school. My one freedom was to turn in my homework or not to, and since everyone was expecting me to turn it in, I simply didn’t. It was a bit of a game to see how close to the line I could make it, because that was the only line I had around to push.

Now she is making the transition from kid to teenager, and while you may not be ready to let her do everything she pleases, she needs some things that she is in control of. Why are you washing her clothes? Let her do her clothes- she may spend a few months in dirty wrinkled clothes, but that is her problem and she’ll eventually learn the value of taking care of her stuff. Why send her to her room at 9:30? She’ll eventually get tired of walking around sleepy all day. Why worry about her room? She is the only one that has to deal with the consequences of it. Try to find a few things she can have ultimate control over- like her bedtime, her room, whatever. It’s just important for kids to be free enough to discover the consequences of their stupid actions and to feel like they have a few things that are truely theirs.

Try to give her some time, too. When I was a kid I would spend hours with my friends playing frisbee after school. It wasn’t really an important thing to do or anything, but those are some of my most cherished moments. One important thing for me was I got a bus pass and could ride the bus everywhere I needed to go. That opened up whole worlds for me- I could go downtown, to movie theaters, come home from school late- whatever. Yeah, I got in some trouble on my own sometimes, but a smart kid can handle a little bit of trouble.

The second issue is pressure. Bright kids have a lot of pressure on them just from being bright. They feel like they must get in to good schools, they must always get good grades, and they must always suceed. But then there is this big revelation when they hit teenagerdom that they don’t actually HAVE to do any of it. There is this amazing newfound feeling of freedom when they realize they can simply shrug off all the expectations that everyone has for them. And there is a certain amount of rebellion against all the plans everyone has been making for them. Finally, failing a bit can take off a lot of pressure. You no longer have to worry every second about ruining your 4.0 if you just fail everything.

There isn’t an easy answer to this. For me, it took actually failing a class to figure out that yes, I could fail, and no, it’s not that much fun. Another thing that helped is I gave myself permission not to try to be validictorian. I didn’t want the pressure of having to worry about some number every moment of my life. I found out the requirements for the college I wanted to get in to, and I made sure to get those. It was nice to have a reachable goal, instead of this big dooming destiny of “be brilliant all the time.” The only reason I did well in college was that we didn’t have grades. For the first time in my life I felt like my education was mine, and that it was about me and how much I could learn, not how well I did on some number scale or “you have to do this in order to get in to a new college”. It was really important to me to feel ownership of my education and to be free from artificial constraints and pressures.

Finally, I really was able to bloom when I found things that I loved outside of school and my family life. I discovered that there was more to me than my grades, and I stopped having to try to prove that. I discovered punk rock, and spent a lot of my time at punk rock concerts or with punk rock friends. Despite popular belief, it’s actually a pretty intellectual and thoughtful genre. It gave me a sense of belonging, a lot of stuff to think about, new ways to think about the world and a method for affecting the change I wanted. I know you are uncomfortable with your daughters vampire-goth stuff. But try to look at the positives. Kids that age really do have to confront questions of life and death and what it means to be alive. They are looking for ways to make sense of all the conflicting adult feelings they feel, and vampire-goth stuff is often an overdramitization that is working through some basic but fundamental feelings. She’s not so much embracing the dark as exploring it, taming it, figureing out where it fits in with her life and taking away it’s power by turning it in to a means of self-expression. Most teenage subcultures are a method of actualization, and she is getting something more out of this than it initially seems. She’s working out an identity- and it’s probably not so much “evil vampire” as it is “emotional, introspective, unafraid, strong, honest, artistic” or something along those lines. The best thing my mom ever did was not freak out about my being a punk rocker, but instead take a little bit of pride in it and make sure I could make it to all the shows, had all the fake leather jackets and boots I needed and take time to know my friends instead of dismissing them for their mohawks.

In time I also discovered other activities that I enjoyed. I spent a lot of time in drama, and a lot of time doing independent video projects with my friends. It felt good to be doing things other than worrying about what would look good on my college application. I learned what really interested me, and now I’m hoping to turn some of this stuff in to a career. If she expresses interest in anything, don’t pressure her about it (which may ruin it for her) but make sure she is able to do it. Arrange rides if after-school activities will make her miss the bus. Make sure she can buy tickets or art supplies or whatever. It may take a while for her to figure out what she like- I didn’t really get involved in activities until Junior year. But now is about the right time for her to make some new friends that share her interests, not just her history, and explore new activities (don’t be surprised if she wants to quit the lessons she’s been taking since she was six- this is pretty normal.)

And good luck. I’ve apologized to my mom for all the trouble I caused in my teenage years, and it’s all worked out in the end. It will be hard, but I promise it gets better.

Bless you. Bless you all. We are not alone. Going through the same thing as LifeOnWry , except with a 16 y.o. boy. He’s been doing it for 3 years now. And I am not overprotective at all. (Although the Mrs. might be). He is just barely pullin 4’s (aka D’s ) . Yet his standardized testing crap all has him ranked quite high. I mentioned in another thread that he has now twice qualified for Nationals in debate. Bright kid. Logical kid. Otherwise fun to be around. Doesn’t do squat for homework.

I mentioned to someone just today that he acts like he is already in college, where “homework” isn’t assigned or done and attendence doesn’t matter. Just how well did you do on the exam.

sigh I feel for us all in this situation. If it is just rebelling, couldn’t they have waited a couple of years?

You may be overlooking the obvious. She honestly may not know how to study, or clean her room, etc. If the task appears to her to be one immense project, it’s hard for her to learn how to grab a corner of it and take it on. That could be the problem. Solution?

Teach her how to break a task down into smaller chunks. Want her to clean her room? Divide it into a number of “zones” (bed, desk, closet, floor, etc.). Put up a chart: Monday is bed, Tuesday is desk, etc. Tell her you want her to spend 5 minutes in that day’s zone. Time her. When the timer rings, let her stop – even if it’s still messy. Eventually, with enough 5 minutes, it will get clean. Stop nagging her about the room and instead praise her for the effort. With luck and time, she’ll eventually figure out that she can tackle any project that way: compartmentalize it and conquer it a bit at a time. In addition, if there’s a chance she’s rebelling against the criticism over her room, you’ll throw her for a loop if you praise her while the room’s still a mess!

Do the same with her homework: have her do 15 or 30 minutes at a time, then she gets a 15 minute break to surf the net, snack, etc. Then back to work until it’s done.

You may have hit it right on the head: she doesn’t know how to do her job. If she’s naturally disorganized and you’re naturally organized, she may have watched you and thought that things just got done by themselves (because you made it look effortless). Instead, you’re going to have to break it down for her.

As for the rest, she’s 15. She’ll get over it.

Funny thing about the whole punk rock/goth thing? I’m 40. Which would place me firmly in the first punk invasion. I named my first car Lestat, and practically LIVED at the Biograph Theatre (Rocky Horror) on weekends.

I know teenagers have some sort of hard-wired need for rebellion, so I do NOT laugh at my kid for being into pretty much all the same stuff I was into at her age… but I do smile sometimes. She and I share many interests aside from the Ren Faire thing, but I try not to fall into the “I’d rather be a friend than a parent” trap. I don’t want to be the Mom who is so cool she stops being a Mom, you know? I did earn some definite cool points when I took her to meet Eddie Izzard, and when I took her to see BFS, but that was a bonus, not a bribe, if that makes sense.

smiling bandit - you may be right. I don’t know anyone for whom high school was the high point of their lives, and if I did, I’m not sure I’d trust them. But, it’s part of the game most of us must play along with until we can assert our independence and fall on our faces in the “real” world.

Hey, worked for my mother. :rolleyes:

Rolleyes weren’t directed at you, bienville.