Would anyone like to buy a teenager, cheap? (long)

[pepperlandgirl]

She might be a stressed and overwhelmed because now it is starting to matter.

I never really went through that phase in high school. I pretty much viewed school as a job (still do) and my job was to turn in HW and ace exams. Ok. Will do. But now that I’m finishing up my degree and my entire future is up in the air and I have no idea what’s going to happen after May, I am freaking out, and the result is that I couldn’t care less about school and I have to convince myself every day to go to class and do what I need to do.

I don’t know quite how to express this. Perhaps her future options, the possible obstacles, the stresses, and the realization that in a few short years she’s going to be an adult, coupled with the pressure to succeed NOW because now it counts, is overwhelming her so thoroughly that it’s easier to just not do it at all. Like my house is sucha complete disaster area that it’s easier to let it be dirty than it is to clean it.

If that makes sense.

[CanvasShoes]

@leander

I can’t really offer any advice either, but I do have two rather pointless observations:

• Why is it that kids always start rebelling around the time when it most matters, i.e. just when grades/school start to count towards college? Or maybe I should rephrase that - why do colleges start the clock around the time when most kids act up?

• This isn’t meant as a slam on Canvas at all, but…I always wondered if every parent says the other kid is the “bad influence”, then who’s the “other kid”?

You’re right. I wasn’t trying to imply that by being bad “influences” that the girls were bad GIRLS. In my case the girls in question were trying to influence my daughter in Satanism. I found out about that, and put the kibbitz on the whole thing. I did however contact the other parents.

I’'m not sure which girls started it. I think that all of them were just bored, and it looked cool and “gothy” to them. I’m positive my kid was no complete innocent, and did her fair share of getting herself and her friends into trouble. As she’s shared with me now that she’s older.

But you know the old saying about there being safety in numbers. I think that’s true when kids are gettin up to dickens too. Upon following this thread, it doesn’t sound as if that’s the problem here though.

IANA head doc, but it sounds more like a personal/emotional issue with **LifeonWry’s{/b] girl to me. And like I said, I’d address that rather than the symptoms of slipping in schoolwork and so on, before I’d start in on punishment or loading the work on.

[OleOneEye]

@LifeOnWry

NOW she is only allowed to use it for homework, and I’m not lifting that.

Ever? Seriously, how long does she have to pay?

[dangermom]

I disagree with some other posters here about the overbearing/overprotective thing. LifeOnWry sounds like a perfectly good parent to me.

[meara]

Just chiming in to say that I was just like your daughter and seem to have turned out fine (degree from top university, great marriage, career, etc.). All through school, I never worked on homework until the last minute – sometimes that was in homeroom on the day it was due; often it was weeks afterwards, right before the marking period ended. In college I eventually learned to choose classes that graded entirely based on exams, so that I’d have less to lose for missing or late assignements.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think there’s much wrong with your parenting. Some people just march to a different drummer. Personally, I prefer work that values “smart and fast” over “patient and meticulous”. It’s too bad that schools can’t accomodate both.

Fortunately, the working world does.

[Mr.Excellent]

I assume your daughter wants to go to college after high school - most honors kids do. Find a college that would accept someone with a fairly mediocre GPA (low 3.0s, say), and see if you can arrange a tour. Shouldn’t be that hard - you’d be starting a little early, but college admissions departments are eager to please. So, ask your school’s guidance counselor to name a few schools for you to look at. They’ll probably be junior colleges, maybe your state university if it isn’t too prestigious, possibly a low-end private college.

Don’t make this a horror show - if your kid thinks you’re trying to “scare her straight”, it won’t work. But when you go on the tour, make sure you ask questions like “Do you have advanced courses in [obscure topic your kid is interested in]?” “What sorts of clubs do you have?” (Try to sit down with a real student, not a tour guide, in the cafeteria when you ask that one. ) “What sort of internships do students at this school typically get?” And so on.

I was a huge underachiever in high school, and the only school that accepted me is Roger Williams University. It’s not a bad school, but it certainly wasn’t my first choice - and a good, thoughtful tour of it in high school might have turned me around. Might not have, too - but it’s worth a shot.

Speaking of - if you’re near Rhode Island, Roger Williams isn’t a bad idea for this tour idea. Email me at mrexcellent AT gmail DOT com, and I can set up a good tour with a prof.

Good luck.

[Mr.Excellent]

@leander

• Why is it that kids always start rebelling around the time when it most matters, i.e. just when grades/school start to count towards college? Or maybe I should rephrase that - why do colleges start the clock around the time when most kids act up?

For the good and simple reason that this is when they first have the opportunity to choose to do stupid things, and make that decision stick - that is, they have dramatically control over when and how they get their work done. Or don’t.

Also, high school is often the first time kids run into genuinely challenging work - now you’ve got the opportunity to dodge work, and a strong incentive to do so.

[treis]

@LifeOnWry

What’s her curfew? Since she’s never asked to go anywhere just “out”, she doesn’t technically HAVE a curfew. On school nights, she gets sent to bed around 9:30, but she rarely goes to sleep before 10:00. Sleepovers, there’s no bedtime, and they’re usually still giggling and talking 'til the wee smalls.

She really shouldn’t be sent to bed at all at 15. Curfew is reasonable but beddy bye time is for children.

@Manda Jo

The problem with that is that 16 year olds are not 18 year olds, and often need more of an incentive to do the work --although you can argue that if you’re going to be in BC calc, 16 years old or not, you’d better be able to judge your skill level and take steps.

The whole point of AP classes are to give high school students college level education. That includes letting them determine whether or not they need to do homework. If they don’t do homework and start failing exams they will figure out that they need to do homework. If they can’t deduce that simple relation then they have no shot at understanding calculus.

@Manda Jo

By this logic, though, my point still stands that an average, bright-but-not-a-genius kid in BC Calc–or any other AP course-- is going to need to study 3-5 hours a week—whether or not it is for a grade–and that if you think your kids shouldn’t be studying that much, and they aren’t geniuses, don’t push them into all honors classes. (Which is not what the OP is doing. This is turning into a bigger hijack than I meant it to be.)

A student does not need to study for any set amount of time rather they need to study for as long as they need to. If a student can’t or won’t put the amount of time necessary to succeed in an honors level course then they can go back to the regular level course. Forcing everyone to do an arbitrary level of homework is unnecessary and ends up wasting a lot of time.

[meanoldman]

I have a little more time for a reply now. My first reply was a bit rushed.

First LifeOnWry and others. I think we should take comfort in the number of other parents going through this… as well as the doper kids and former kids that went through it themselves. All these people popping up on this board, in this thread alone, seems to indicate it is fairly common. Still irritating as all get out, just a common irritation.

LifeOnWry is examining her parenting skills, specifically whether or not she is too protective and/or controlling. Well, relax Life , because it can happen just as easily on the other end of the spectrum as well. I’ve always tried to let my kid (a boy, so that is different) do whatever was legally allowed. The men in my family have a history of dying fairly young, so I always wanted him ready to make his own decisions as soon as possible (though I’d sure try to ‘instruct and inform’ those decisions).

I look back to so many years ago myself, when I was a teen. I slid by a little in high school, but not as bad as what my kid is doing or from the sounds of it what other kids are doing. I waited till my first year of college, when it was costing money, to decide to let it all go. Took me years to come around… but I did eventually.
And knowing that, I also know that getting into the “college of your choice” right outta high school, isn’t -necessary- to have a happy life. It sure helps, but isn’t necessary.
Oh oh OoooooooH!!! The Mrs. just reminded me of something. Our son is of mixed ethnicity. The family unit of in-laws, cousins and such is even -more- ethnically diverse. Our kid still managed to FAIL the course on Cultural Studies, since he did -nothing- on his own or much of anyone else’s ethnicity. Guess he figured he lives it, so why bother to turn in papers about it. sigh

[Ashes_Ashes]

One of my friends sits with her son every second he’s on-line, which may sound horrifically over-protective to some, but for their family is appropriate. Everybody’s comfortable with the arrangement; they see it as guidance and an opportunity for quality time. I think that LifeOnWry sounds like a fine parent, but some things may need tweaking to make a better fit as things have changed.

MandaJO’s posts I will second, her views and advice are exactly what I’ve learned on the job myself. Some kids really flounder with the greater freedoms of high school that are combined with such huge responsibilities, goals and distractions. Plus, teenagers are nuts. About the only thing I can offer that hasn’t been mentioned already, is a workbook named Choices (Challenges was for boys, but I read it anyway, ha). Basically it walked kids through the realities of adult life, like how much money you’d have to make to be able to afford your chosen lifestyle, and other more emotional stuff like choosing positive friends. Something like this could be useful for you both and her counselor or life sciences (what used to be home ec, here) teacher may have a more up to date copy. It could give her a taste of reality and light a fire under her, plus give her strategies for whatever might be her issues is what I’m thinking.

Regarding the messy room; I had a messy room at home because I just didn’t have a proper storage system for all of my junk. It’s amazing how my tiny dorm room was neat as a pin because of something as simple as closet shelves and clear storage boxes. I finally got my schedule together when I bought a Franklin Planner and used it. Those things are amazing.

And I hereby give thee permission to not do her laundry, and certainly not fold it, if she doesn’t appreciate the effort. Be free!

[DiosaBellissima]

@lifeonwry

well, I find it kind of weird that she’s going out with a boy who doesn’t generally ask to take her on dates and who basically only sees her at school, so knowing the number of dates is more related to the fact that there have been so few

I am 19, just graduated this past summer: allow me to elaborate on this particular subject.

I can’t remember a single time any of my bf’s asked my parents for permission to take me out. It’s just not the norm any more. This goes for all my friends, too. Also it is normal in high school to be “dating” someone when all you do is walk across the quad, hold hands, and kiss once in a while. Trust me, these two aren’t being all that strange!

I think it would be really cool of you (ah, don’t you hate that phrase) to offer her some extra $ to take him out to ice cream or something after the date. Teach her to be the one wearing the pants in the relationship.

[OleOneEye]

@Ashes

One of my friends sits with her son every second he’s on-line, which may sound horrifically over-protective to some, but for their family is appropriate. Everybody’s comfortable with the arrangement; they see it as guidance and an opportunity for quality time.

I’m almost afraid to ask- how old is the boy? Is he 10/13/17 years 364 days?

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

LifeOnWry, my sister and I–five years apart–both went through this same period in high school. My sister’s was pretty severe–she actually got caught trying to drink 7 year-old beer. I simply didn’t do an entire quarter of Latin homework (not a single damned assignment, whoops). Now, I can’t speak for my sister, but I know I used a lot of the same excuses that your daughter is.

I’m familiar with some of the social pressures that the area and that particular high school can have. Being into things like Renn Faire and goth-vampy stuff were not, as I recall, tickets to popularity (though, admittedly, I think they’re a bit more acceptable than they were when I was in school). And, even if you have your own group of friends, it can feel very, very lonely out there. The social scene still is very cliquish–at least from what my sister tells me–and it can be hard to get along. Even if she doesn’t realize it, that could be getting your daughter down.

Getting into after-school activities helped my sister out a lot. She joined the soccer team, and, even though she was no great shakes, she did have a lot of fun. She’s doing really well, now, even though she was a total mess freshman year. Counseling also helped her, too, but I don’t think it’s necessary in your case. My problem was just that the work was boring, and that I didn’t want to do it. I know that at least one of the honors Bio teachers at that school is dead boring–if she has him, it might just be that the work is really, really tedious and pointless, in which case a lesson of “sometimes you just have to play their game” might work wonders (God knows it did for me).

Also, I know from not-personal-but-still-darn-skippy-experience that the automated phone calls can be circumvented if the kid answers the phone and listens the whole way through. If you have caller ID, though, that isn’t a problem. And they’re so TOUCHY. My mom pretty much ignored them one year, 'cause they kept on saying I skipped Driver’s Ed when I didn’t.

BTW, if you need any recommendations for stuff–or, heck, even if you just wanna know if your daughter’s hanging out with my sis–shoot me an e-mail.

[LifeOnWry]

@DiosaBellissima

I can’t remember a single time any of my bf’s asked my parents for permission to take me out. It’s just not the norm any more.

Nonononono. I mean he doesn’t ask HER. If he asked ME if he could take her out, I’d think he was more than slightly odd. Also, one other thing that people may be missing: none of her friends are driving yet, and there’s nowhere for them to go that’s within walking distance, except the elementary school playground where they’re somewhat less than welcoming to “big kids.” All the kids hang out at one another’s homes (one other mom and I routinely joke that we have joint custody of one another’s kids) and if they’re going anywhere else, SOMEONE has to drive them.

The concert thing that came up earlier - I’d let her go to concerts with friends, but most of the concerts are in Chicago. They gotta get there SOMEHOW - so I, or another parent, take them. Usually me, because I’m the only one who can stand the music.

Angel - as always, it’s nice to be reminded that you’re practically right here and have immediate knowledge of the “playing field.” Since you know the school, you know it’s the arts academy. The artsy-goth kids aren’t more popular than the jocks and such, but there are enough of them that they’re not entirely misfits, either. Her bio teacher is female, but I know who you’re talking about, too, and he IS dead boring. I didn’t realize your sister was still there - what year is she? I may shoot that email your way just to see if there’s any intersection.

OleOneEye - even though I think you’re being snarkier than I deserve, I’ll answer your question: she’s grounded from using the computer for anything but homework until I see some evidence that she is makig the attempt to keep up with her homework. Tonight, she had it done. If she continues to DO IT through the next week, her restrictions will be lifted, although she will have to show me completed homework (or proof that she doesn’t have any) before going online.

[LifeOnWry]

Oh, forgot: Mr. Excellent - that’s not a bad idea! We’re nowhere near Rhode Island, but we have some decent, if not entirely attractive, community colleges and universities 'round here. There are also two really good ones she has mentioned, so maybe seeing a little contrast would be a good nudge for her. I’ll speak to her guidance counselor about it, thanks!

(And also thanks to all of you who have reassured me that I am not a complete control-freak parent. I didn’t FEEL like I was nuts, but you never know…)

[OleOneEye]

@LifeOnWry

OleOneEye - even though I think you’re being snarkier than I deserve, I’ll answer your question: she’s grounded from using the computer for anything but homework until I see some evidence that she is makig the attempt to keep up with her homework. Tonight, she had it done. If she continues to DO IT through the next week, her restrictions will be lifted, although she will have to show me completed homework (or proof that she doesn’t have any) before going online.

Fair enough, I took your statement that you “weren’t lifting it” at face value. Glad to hear that she at least has the chance to earn back privileges. I know from experience that the longer a punishment goes on, over time, the connection between the punishment and the bad deed becomes more and more tenuous.

[Shirley_Ujest]

@LifeOnWry

You know, I’d kind of like to explore this whole idea that I might be overbearing, not giving her enough free time, or conversely not giving her enough responsibility. Would anyone care to elaborate on this a little? I’m perfectly willing to take my lumps if I’ve fucked up my job as a parent, and there’s always room for improvement, but maybe I’m too close to this to see what I’m doing wrong.

There is a great quote from Everafter inwhich I shall mangle for you.

With freedom comes specific obligations & responsiblities.

Great movie.
Give her some freedom and responsiblities and she just may surprise you.

You are planning the trip to the UK this summer. (Yes, no, maybe? can I go?) Maybe if you dangle the carrot before her nose of " Get organized, get your poo together and stop getting these careless mistakes and I will give you one afternoon on our vacation in X town to call the shots of what you want to do."

Or something like that. That would have worked for me in school.

[MandaJo]

@treis

The whole point of AP classes are to give high school students college level education. That includes letting them determine whether or not they need to do homework. If they don’t do homework and start failing exams they will figure out that they need to do homework. If they can’t deduce that simple relation then they have no shot at understanding calculus.

Actually, it’s to teach them college level material. The style of education best suited to average 16 year-olds may be–and often is–different from the style best suited to 18 year old. AP isn’t about replicated college early. It’s about advanced materials to prepare you for college. If a kid is best suited to college early, put them in college.

And I more or less agree with you by the time you get to calculus. However, on the lower level courses that prep you for calculus, I am going to argue that kids under 16 are very, very bad judges of how well they understand something, and if deciding they get it means they get to stop doing homework, they are quite capable of deciding that they understand something they don’t. Then they bomb two tests before anyone notices and are so far behind they can’t catch up. Enough people doing that (and the bulk of normal 14 and 15 year olds will do that) and you won’t have a calculus class anymore, because the only kids who will be able to handle it are a handful of really bright ones, and the school district won’t let them have a class for 5 kids.

The point is not to teach a moral lesson about consequences and life in the real world. It is to teach math. At any level under AP, a whole lot more kids will actually learn math if you make homework mandatory. If the price of 20 kids really learning math who wouldn’t otherwise is that 5 kids have to waste time doing homework that is superfluous, I’m ok with that.

A student does not need to study for any set amount of time rather they need to study for as long as they need to. If a student can’t or won’t put the amount of time necessary to succeed in an honors level course then they can go back to the regular level course. Forcing everyone to do an arbitrary level of homework is unnecessary and ends up wasting a lot of time.

What about my point that English is about what you’ve done (read major works of literature, written substantial papers), not what you could do, or can pretend you did on a test? Because that’s what the bulk of my homework is. Are you saying that a student who can read the sparknotes limp through novel tests, but who hasn’t actually written any papers in my class (which are homework), should get credit for English?

Yes, a fast reader/writer can get through my class with a lot less time spent on homework–but when kids that are thinking about making the leap up to my class ask me how much work it is each week, I don’t say “Oh, not much if you are a fast reader and a good writer”, because while that is technically correct it sets up a false expectation for most kids. I say “3-5 hours, on average”, because that jives with the reading/writing speed of an average/slightly below average AP student.

[LifeOnWry]

@Shirley Ujest

You are planning the trip to the UK this summer. (Yes, no, maybe? can I go?) Maybe if you dangle the carrot before her nose of " Get organized, get your poo together and stop getting these careless mistakes and I will give you one afternoon on our vacation in X town to call the shots of what you want to do."

Or something like that. That would have worked for me in school.

Next summer, and you can go if you’ll fit in my carryon.

Yesterday, when she got home from school, I asked her what homework she had. She said some Spanish and some algebra, and then said that her biology teacher had given them a free period for study or make-up work, and that she had caught up. Remember, she was missing 14 assignments, so I have my doubts, but I didn’t pursue it. She had piano lessons after school, so when we got home from that we had dinner. The WryGuy and I left the table and told her to do her homework. She did, and showed me afterward. I asked her if she’d double-checked her math, she said she had, and I said fine.

Then, last night as I was drifting off to sleep, I came up with A Theory. As I mentioned, she has kitchen chores - dishwasher, taking out the recycling and setting and clearing the table. She does not do these chores well, or without being reminded, and it occurred to me that she has these chores for no real reason other than I think kids should have SOME household responsibility. So… I thought maybe, instead of her having to do the same chores every day, I would mix it up a little. Have her dust the family room one day, then the next day have her sweep the floor in the dining room, etc. I know I hate housework mainly because it is monotonous. DUH! Maybe throwing in some variety will keep her from feeling like she’s in a rut there, and ideally will translate into a more relaxed attitude about home stuff. Which SHOULD make her feel better in general, and MGHT reflect in her schoolwork.

I’ll let you know if it has any effect.

[Caprese]

@Shirley Ujest

There is a great quote from Everafter inwhich I shall mangle for you.

With freedom comes specific obligations & responsiblities.

Great movie.
Give her some freedom and responsiblities and she just may surprise you.

You are planning the trip to the UK this summer. (Yes, no, maybe? can I go?) Maybe if you dangle the carrot before her nose of " Get organized, get your poo together and stop getting these careless mistakes and I will give you one afternoon on our vacation in X town to call the shots of what you want to do."

Or something like that. That would have worked for me in school.

Yeah, that’s what we tried with my older son.
“We have to trust him,” I said to my skeptical husband. “If we give him the freedom, he’ll honor the responsibility that comes with it.”
The kid merrily lied and betrayed our trust at every turn from about 14 through 18.
I think many teens really are just in a different mindset–a different bodyset.
They are growing and changing, not children yet not adults. Like the old Alice Cooper song, Eighteen.
“I’m in the middle without any plans
I’m a boy and I’m a man.”
Sometimes it’s a lot to juggle, and one thing or another gets dropped.
Older kid did get it together and went off to Europe solo after he graduated from high school. Other than getting caught drinking beer in his dorm, he’s been swell ever since.
LifeOnWry
I agree that housework can be monotonous, and maybe changing things around would help your daughter. OTOH, sometimes kids like predictability. But if the chore, whatever it is, is at least somewhat close to the same time every day, perhaps the variety would indeed improve the situation. (I’m just going on what my experience was, you know your own kid and how she operates.)
I can barely get my 15 year old to keep his room clean, but yesterday he took the garbage and recycle out without being asked. Ah, life’s little triumphs.