I got the Air Force to stop calling me. This was in college and they were calling all the Engineering students:
“Hello, I’m your friendly neighborhood Air Force Recruiter and we’re calling because we’re lookin for navigators. We find that engineering students make good navigators. Are you interested?”
“Lemme 'splain something to you. I’m six-foot-three, three hundred pounds, and I’vg got 20/200 vision.”
…Long pause…
“Do you know anybody else who would be interested in being a navigator?”
It was a seperate sentence, with nothing to do with the first. I am usually pretty unbiased and think nothing different about homsexuals compared to straights.
I trust that you are always totally honest with telemarketers who won’t leave you alone. Because that’s what you were - a telemarketer.
Still, this doesn’t address the good point made by the OP. I was in college during Vietnam. If a future draft is for a war as popular as that one, and given the current views on gayness (at least at my daugher’s school) you are going to see lots of guys reporting to the draft board hand in hand with their boyfirends for the day. It opens a loophole in the draft laws that lot’s of people will take.
For social conservatives, the bad side would be that they get called up out of proportion to their numbers in the population. On the good side, the number of miracle gayness cures will increase. 
“I’m only sixteen,
Have a ruptured spleen,
And I always carry a purse,”
Phil Ochs, Draftdodger Rag.
Hell yeah I did. hy would i waste my time if they aren’t interested? I didn’t want to be a recruiter in the first place, so I wasn’t going to pester some poor kid about joining if they really weren’t interested. When someone says “No, not interested” we write it down in a book so we (the station I worked in) don’t call them again. But that doesn’t mean the marines, air force or navy won’t call them. A lot of people don’t realize its not the “army” calling but another service and get upset.
I actually respected the kids that said not interested because they said it. The ones that pissed me off were th ones that lied. i won’t go into those stories, trust me, it sucked. Recruiting sucks period. It was the most miserable period of my entire life.
Oh, yeah, right. Saying you’re not interested makes recruiters leave you alone. Sure it does! Why, they only called at least three or four times a week from when I was 17 until I left for college, at which point they kept calling my mother and asking where I was. The summer after my first year of college they rang the phone off the wall wanting to know if maybe I was sick of college and wanted to join the military instead. All that in addition to being forced to take the ASVAB in high school whether I wanted to or not, knowing that it would just call more recruiter hell down upon me. Saying “I’m not interested” does not work, my dear. I’d like to know where the military gets off being allowed to invade my privacy and hound me for years against my will when I was most certainly “not interested”. I was never anything but polite and truthful to these guys, and they were unstoppable and un-get-riddable.
Ok, lets cut to the chase. I’ve been in the military for almost 16 years. Actually thats active duty for…total military time is almost 17 years. I have never seen anyone being personally investigated for being gay. I’ve seen one guy get kicked out for being gay but he was taking pictures of peoples dicks in the shower.
Now if you have evidence of the investigations taking place I’ll concede the point. And you know, there will probably always be a shortage of linguists simply because its a hard job to fill. A lot of people can’t qualify for it via test scores and the required security clearances. If there are a lot gay people being kicked out that job, again, I’ll concede the point if you have evidence of it. I’m not a linguist, but i’ve worked with a few. I won’t say that you’re wrong but I’m not convinced that you are right.
What I meant by camaradie was badly worded. But what I meant was this…and its a true story. When Clinton got elected and said he’d let gays in the military our sergeant major in the unit i was in had a meeting and basically he was pissed that there might be gays living in our barracks soon. He was asking random people in the room what they would do if thier roommate was gay. A lot of guys were like “I’d kick their ass, Sergeant Major!”. It was scary actually, to see some of my comrades in that fervor. Later that week a buddy of mine that was an MP told me they had to break up a riot in a tanker unit because some guys there came out of the closet. You may not like it, and I may not like it, but apparently the whole gay guy in the barracks thing caused a lot of problems in existing units.
Being in the barracks at that time i sure didn’t want to live in an atmosphere of constant fighting and suspicions. I don’t know if I can make you understand the different mindset that military people have, but thats not my job or responsibility anyway. Is it a mob mentality when it comes to this subject? Probably yes. But you need to have these guys ready to take a bullet for each other.
I think you’re making a big assumption in saying that the american public is being endangered by missing vital intelligence. Do you really think they’d kick a guy out if they really really needed him? Trust me, they’d overlook his gay lifestyle long enough to replace him if he was needed that badly. I’m not saying thats right, and you probably don’t believe me, but it happens. I was disqualified by age and demographic to be a recruiter when and where i was but they overlooked that because they needed me there. And when I said I don’t know I probably should have said I’m not sure. But I didn’t offer lukewarm support for gays in the military. I really meant I don’t fucking care if a guy is gay. I have gay friends that are non military. I’ve had a gay friend in the military in past duty station and not said a word (I promised him and besides my wife this is the first time in ten years i’ve told anyone that)…even when they admitted they were gay to me. He was good soldier and i really didn’t care what he did at home. Just because I understand the reasons the military has for its rules doesn’t mean I agree wholeheartedly with them. If Bush let gays serve openly tomorrow morning there’d be problems but we would follow our orders. (After we watched hell freeze over)
Don’t blame me for the rough and tumble attitude that the military has. But don’t make it seem like the military will go down the drain because of it. (there are a lot of other things the military should change first in my opinion.)
Now I’m sure you’ll tell me I’m ignoring facts and that I’ve contradicted this that or the other thing, but thats just how I feel about it and what I know from my experience. One more time, if you have evidence that anything i’m saying is completely wrong, I’ll concede the point. I’m not trying to argue with you, just sharing what I know.
It is true, when some they are not interested, they really mean it. But…do you know how many times I have been told “I am not interested”, but to call three months later and they changed their minds. Maybe the plan to go to college fell through, or they decided it was not for them to go to college, or perhaps they met a friend who just came out of the Marines or Navy or whatever, and realized that it could be them that could be wearing that uniform.
As for people out of their first year or semester of college, I am not sure of the stats, but the drop out level is super high. So it is because of that the calls came through.
It is not for everybody, but out of the people in the military, it is a small number that actually grew up thinking they were going to join, or that was their goal when they finished high school. It is not for everybody, but it is up to a recruiter to try to persuade them.
REMEMBER, that most recruiters do not want to be put on recruiting duty, it is a job they were given and they have to make the best of it. To stay on the thread, most probably do not care if someone is gay, they have a mission to achieve, that is it.
I’m with Zsofia.
I took the ASVAB myself in high school - at the insistence of my guidance counselor and because it was an excuse not to go to Calculus that day. Any day in which I got to give Calculus a pass was a good day - and if I hadn’t done it I would have heard about not taking the stupid thing for years. Wish I’d put up with the guidance counselor nagging instead, frankly.
Unfortunately, I tested out exceptionally well. I tend to on standardized tests.
For the next eighteen months I got a phone call every other Tuesday at 5:45pm and every other Saturday at 9:15am, just like clockwork. One phone call a week. They weren’t all from the same branch of the service, but each and every branch made repeated calls. You’ll note the times were seriously inconvenient. Dinner time and earlier in the morning on a Saturday than I cared to get up and explain, yet again, that I had no interest in a career in the military.
The first few times, I was polite about it. I explained that I had no interest in joining the military and, in fact, would be ineligible (I have severe rheumatoid arthritis and suffered a major knee injury playing varsity volleyball - I can run maybe half a mile before my knee dislocates and drops me into a sobbing heap of pain). I also explained that I was planning to attend college, and had already secured all the funding necessary for that endeavor without needing to avail myself of the GI Bill.
Still they called. Over and over and over and over.
After eighteen months, I moved out of my parents’ home to attend college - and still the calls kept coming. My mother explained my position again and again. She gave them my number at school, which they then called over and over and over (while still calling my mother) and *I * explained my position.
The last call came two months ago. My mother just told them my current age and hung up on their encouragement it was never too late.
I graduated from high school in 1993. One would think a 1992 date on the test results would deter them.
As a recruiter, the arthritis would have automatically knocked you off my list. I would have put a big DQ (disqualified) for future reference for myself and the next recruiter who took my place.
The college would not have stopped me. I never sold the GI Bill as a Marine Corps recruiter, but it probably would have not stopped many recruiters. Peoples views change often.
Now calling you that many years down the road, they are idiots.
I’m saying thats what we did at our station. I know recruiters are like hungry dogs on red meat.
I don’t have the link, but there was the video of the news story about how recruiters were doing illegal things to get people a year or so ago. (around May 2005). Do you know why? I don’t want to relive this, even in memories, but I’ll tell you why some recruiters might be that way…
They threaten you. They threaten your career, your being able to take care of your family, and then they pretend that that your welfare comes first. Bullshit. Recruiting command is a black hole of dickheads and i hate them all. Well, i don’t hate the recruiters, but RC is full of shit. If you don’t put someone in they’ll do their damndest to make your life miserable. You’re already working 12 to 16 hours a freaking day, 6 days a week, so misery is your companion. I NEVER saw my wife as a recruiter. I was working all of the time. It almost got me divorced. I’m not the only one, recruiters have a lot of family problems. They count how many phone calls you make and don’t you dare have less than 200 at days end.
Think you’re getting that big four day weekend? hell no. You gotta fill them boots. Go find someone, and if you don’t the 1st sergeant will bring you a cot and you can sleep in the office. We fucking worked on Christmas Eve.
You’re on leave? forget it. not only was i constantly on call while on leave, I practically had to work. I should have just not gone on leave…oh, but wait, by regulations I can’t have more than sixty days of leave saved up. I have 73! Because they turned down my leave! Yet when I was over the limit they wrote me up about it!
Recruiting Command has diabolical ways to make you do these things. You’ll be willing to drown puppies and kick babies to make your quota because they’ll find every way to torture you if they don’t. I practically had a heart attack at work and they gave me ONE fucking day off. They didn’t even call my wife while I was in the ER. A buddy had to tell her. Fuckers.
Trust me, you can’t hate recruiting command more than I do. But I don’t hate recruiters because I’ve been in their shoes. I got written up for not pestering people that weren’t interested. I was sent to “extra training” which means they send you to the most inconvenient location as FAR away as possible (to make you drive there in misery) at the most inconvenient time, like saturday night at 9 PM. Don’t dare be late! and when you get there they just yell at you and tell you to find a person to join.
And I was top recruiter for the quarter. But I didn’t have anyone lined up when the quarter ended. So despite putting in enough people to make the station quota, not only my own, despite over ten years of spotless service and despite having 2 of the highest medals one can achieve without actually being fucking shot, I was a shitbag the day the quarter ended and thus deserved being treated as such. (sense that I’m bitter about recruiting command? I am)
hilariously I got written up for being written up so much.
Look, I’m not defending recruiting. I hated it, my dear. I joined the army because I wanted too. Hell, I went to the recruiter and signed up, he didn’t have to call me. So I understand how frustrating it is when they won’t leave you alone. But what happened a lot to me is this…
ME: (calling person I don’t actually want to talk to, but in the book, it doesn’t say DO NOT CALL): Ask them if they are interested in joining the army
PERSON: (Calls me everything but a child of God and says I’ve been calling them all week, all year, whatever)
ME: I ask them who called them, do they have a name, because it wasn’t me, and we were assigned areas. No one but me and the reserve recruiter can call that area.
PERSON: Well, it wasn’t me , or the reserve recruiter it was SGT Joe Blow from the Marines…but we told him to stop calling!
ME: I’m not the marines! I don’t know if they called or not and its not my business if they did! I understand your frustration, but I’m not the guy that made you so mad! And understand I’m only calling you because I have to under orders!
PERSON: (usually) Ok, sorry I flipped out. But I’m not interested.
ME: Not a problem. (Crosses persons name out in or book)
Now that may not happen in every station and keep in mind the Army National Guard can call you, but its not the the ACTIVE DUTY army guys that are responsible for it. I hear they’ve changed thing around,mostly due to the bad press recruiting was getting. Well, mostly because it made the public aware of stress recruiters were under. I’ve literally seen coworkers in recruiting go nuts and have to be under a shrink’s care and one guy tried to kill himself because, as he said “Its easier than going to work”.
this was a lot longer than I intended and I apologize for the hijack. The mere mention of recruiting often send me into a tirade.
Are you talking about the Marine Corps recruiting scandal?
I’m kinda confused at the military members denying DADT is used to discharge gay service members.
I am a bit biased on the issue. With DADT in place I never considered joining the military. Do to a physical handicap I don’t think I could have joined even if I wanted to. I required a one inch lift for my left leg.
Here are some sites concerning the policy
wiki contains a chart showing the number of discharges do to DADT
This is a washington post article talking about how much the DADT policy costs the military.
This is an article by LAMDA legal concerning a high amount of comanders violating the don’t ask and don’t pursue portions of the regulation. http://www.lambda.org/don’t_ask.htm
Overall the policy costs taxpayers money unessesarily. It has a coralation with officers making comand violations. Our soldiers have managed to serve along side of gay troops from other countries without incident.
I think there is plenty of evidence it is a stupid policy. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence it is an effective policy.
There have been cases were the use of the DADT policy has been suspended for openly gay soldiers until they could be replaced.
I would expect if a draft was instated they would still force gay members to serve untill they had an abundance of troops. Then the military would go back to dishonorably discharging gay soldiers.
No, itt was army. you guys had a scandal?
I don’t think anyone is really denying that the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy is used to discharge gay members of the military. It IS used to deny those who openly admit to being gay. And some gay members use it to attempt to challenge the legality or corectness of the system, and they usually lose. The system was put in place for whatever reason (whether agreed upon or not) and is used for that purpose.
I have NEVER seen anyone witchhunted. It was well known when I enlisted (1994) that we were not allowed to ask anyone if they were a homsexual. Because of the policy, a lot of more ‘open’ gay military members enlisted, as it was a step ‘up’, although maybe not the step up that Clinton promised.
I am not sure if lambda.org is the best site to use for references, but I will not attempt to disagree with the numbers.
HAVE MORE PEOPLE been kicked out because they said they were gay? Hell yes. Because they came out and SAID THEY WERE GAY, or did something that broke the rule (gay sex, whatever).
What happened to military members prior to this policy? I have heard more than one story of blanket parties, discrimination, etc. prior to this policy came in effect.
You say soldiers have managed to fight along gay members in other countries, you are 100% correct. And you know what, our American soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and sailors also fight along gay men and women with no problem. There have always been gay servicemembers and always will be, no matter what the policy is.
In my ten years in the Marines, both as a follower and leader, I have known of many a gay Marine (although never ‘open’ by the term), and have hung out with them, roomed with them, showered with them, etc. and have never had a problem. And if they were to say they were gay in the open, the UCMJ would have been followed and they would have been seperated. It is the law the military has to follow. And because it is the law, if there were to be a draft, they would not be allowed to enlist. Period. If the law were to change (maybe if Hillary becomes president), than so be it. Military members would have to adjust or get out.
Oh, and for you numbers of discharges because of the DADT policy, how many of those were not gay but said they were because it is actually a pretty easy discharge?
Just so you know, I am saying this in the form of a good debate/argument, and is definitely not personal. I try to be as unbiased as possible. But I consider myself pretty informed on the subject, as I did serve, and was a recruiter, and am pretty versed on the law.
Yep, yep, yep. I was involved in it, kind of. Can’t tell you because you would have ALL of my information. What service doesn’t have some sort of recruiting scandal?
Yep, yep, yep. I was involved in it, kind of. Can’t tell you because you would have ALL of my information. What service doesn’t have some sort of recruiting scandal?
I love that song!
:: sings along ::
Got eyes like a bat, my feet are flat
And my asthmas’s gettin’ worse . . .
It amazes me that you’re trying to argue this and you’re simply completely unaware of what’s going on. For like the third time, someone has already linked to a story discussing this. The fact that these are difficult posts to fill makes it even less reasonable for the military to repeatedly kick people out who are qualified for their jobs. Do you understand why that’s a problem? It’s not just unfair, it’s a fucking crime as far as national security goes (and Loach, are you suggesting that the military’s intelligence posts are not intended to contribute to national defense?) shizaru, do you understand what that means? Does it make sense to you to systematically throw people out of their posts, when those posts are difficult to fill, because they’re gay?
I’m already aware that the military is not generally composed of the country’s leading intellectual lights; it’s not really necessary to explain that to me. It seems like deciding to continue a policy of discriminating against gay people (and again, how many of these translators are living in barracks?) because many of their fellows are homophobic is quite contrary to the principles these guys are supposed to be upholding. After all, the military is racially desegregated, and it certainly couldn’t have been universally popular to do so. When was that done? I’m guessing the Vietnam era.
Let’s be straightforward; the military brass is not interested in fixing the problem. If they were, they would be working to ensure that folks like your sergeant major were not in positions of power, any more than open advocates of white supremacy are. At any rate, it’s rather shocking how difficult it apparently is to maintain discipline and decorum in the military, at least as you describe it. I had imagined that soldiers are at least capable of mindless obedience based on my naive impressions of the military. If their superiors are either unwilling or unable to control them sufficiently to prevent incidents like the ones you hint at from taking place, that makes me all the less confident.
Why is the military creating these apparently useless intelligence posts? I think you should go to the media with this; if the military is spending large amounts of money on running an intelligence service that isn’t contributing to national security, something is going badly wrong, wouldn’t you say?
Oh, I don’t expect the military to “go down the drain”, whatever that means. My only point was in correcting what you and Doors have claimed, which was essentially to the effect that this is not a significant problem. If you imagine that having intelligence positions short-staffed (as you yourself have acknowledged, eventually, the shortage of translators is a pretty well-known problem) will have no effect on national security, I’m afraid that line of reasoning simply doesn’t make sense to me. I wouldn’t know whether this is particularly large on the list of problems faced by the military’s internal organization - perhaps it is, as you imply, rife with even larger, worse problems (that would be consistent with the terrible leadership exhibited in this problem). If so, then I have to say I’m becoming even more skeptical about our national security. If our fighting forces are the platoons of bumbling incompetents that you describe - run by bigots, incapable of following orders, and wasting vital resources on intelligence tasks that for whatever reason aren’t contributing to national security - then we, as a nation, are in even worse trouble than most Americans have realized as yet.
It amazes me that you really don’t understand anything I said. But hey if you’re convinced that we’re all a bunch of cavemen I’m not going to try to tell you otherwise.
Well I don’t really understand what you are trying to say either. It keeps coming out as ‘me shizaru chomp chomp pachewy chewy champ.’
Its actually “I, Shizaru”. I don’t know what pachewy means though, but I’ll try to invient the alphabet and cave drawings this afternoon.