Don't ask don't tell

Factual Questions
1

I’m sure there’s a factual answer for this question. Also, I am not defending or objecting to “don’t ask don’t tell”, I just want a factual answer.

I keep hearing that more gays are being kicked out of the military than before this policy was enacted and I can’t quiet wrap my brain around it.

Here’s how I see things, so first, tell me if I’m wrong, and second, tell me why don’t ask don’t tell causes more gays to get the boot.

My understanding of don’t ask don’t tell

  1. The military cannot try to find out the sexual orientation of any of its members.
  2. If a member mentions that he or she is gay then he or she is kicked out.

My understanding of the time before don’t ask don’t tell.

  1. The military can try to find out the sexual orientation of any of its members and if it finds out that someone is gay it can boot them out.
  2. If a member mentions that he or she is gay then he or she is kicked out.

So it seems to me that the number of gays getting kicked out should have been higher before don’t ask don’t tell was implemented. But maybe I’m wrong in my understanding of how things are and how they were. Anyway, please keep it GQ, thank you.

2

A large part of the reason there are more discharges under DADT than prior to it is that it’s easier to discharge someone for homosexuality now than it was. In the old days, the service member would have to either come right out and say, “I’m gay”, be convicted of sodomy with a member of the same sex, or be suspected of being gay, investigated, and given an administrative separation hearing to be discharged. The military pretty much had to prove that the service member engaged in homosexual sex or attempted to engage in homosexual sex. After DADT, it became a lot easier to discharge service members for homosexuality; a lower standard of proof was required.

3

What is the new “lower standard of proof”?

4

A couple more factors: First, with homosexuality being much more socially-accepted now than it was a few decades ago, a lot more people are choosing to come out. And second, with two wars going strong for the past several years, some folks may have decided that telling was a convenient way to avoid going to the Middle East to get shot at.

5

And this part of it is just completely ignored by the military, in practice.

About 3 people a day are kicked out of the military for ‘telling’, but when have you ever heard of a person being kicked out for ‘asking’?

6

Cite?

My impression in the Army is that with two wars going on most commanders would rather have the soldiers than kick anyone out that can fight.

7

The stories I hear is that in either something like a letter or E-mail correspondence the gay soldier/airman/marine/sailor writes something that outs him or her as being gay. Or maybe somebody overhears him or her talking to someone else.

8

It’s the wars. I know from first-hand experience as well as some sort of expert on NPR that both gays and non-gays use DADT to avoid deployment. It makes sense too, since I know a ton of people that have used every trick in the book to get out of the Army. It’s really not that hard. Not only that, but it could also be (and this is just speculation) that there are a higher percentage of gays in the military now than there used to be. I suspect that before, gays were highly discouraged from joining, whereas today, sexuality isn’t that big of a deal so there’s less pressure to avoid service.

ETA: I don’t know what office the expert held. He was a high-ranking civilian, though.

9

We did this topic a few months ago, and I’ll paraphrase my response concerning this.

The UCMJ, and Army policies, are like any other kind of law; some can be discretely ignored, some can be “interpreted,” and some are set in stone. They can be highly “situational;” context is everything.

Military commander, while sharing some similar attributes, are nonetheless individuals, with their own feelings, beliefs, etc. You might have a commander of an infantry company, call it “A Company,” who might turn a blind eye towards gays in his unit as long as they keep it “on the down low” and do their jobs with reasonable proficiency. As long as he can plausibly ignore it, he will. “Gay” becomes a qualifier so far down the list of attributes as to be nonexistent in normal daily operation.

In the same battalion might be another infantry company commander, let’s call it “B Company.” He might be a Bible-thumping, God-Fearing acolyte of Rev. Fred Phelps, and maliciously persecute (within the letter of the UCMJ and Army policy) anyone he even remotely suspects of being a homosexual.

Both officers can be good, effective infantry company commanders. But one is a “good unit” in which to be gay (albeit discretely) and serve honorably, while the other is an almost Orwellian nightmare.

And you might (correctly, IMO) think that, in the middle of two shooting wars and declining enlistment numbers, practical concerns would squash Homo Witch Hunts.

To this I would reply that deeply-held prejudices are rarely rational, or pause to consider practicalities.

10

What discharge do you get? Dishonorable? General discharge? Bad conduct? And how does that effect any benefits? Do you get any VA benefits from a general discharge?

11

The problem with don’t ask, don’t tell is that it has an absolute part - if they tell, they have to be kicked out.

Prior to the policy, even if a serviceman made the claim, it wasn’t enough to process a discharge. There had to be an investigation and a hearing. Just being homosexual wasn’t enough, they had to commit a homosexual act or their behaviour had to be disrupting of morale. My father and grandfather both served with openly gay men in the navy(1960s) and army(WWII) respectably. Everyone knew, no one bothered to prove anything.

But it wasn’t always accepted and in some cases it caused cases of harrasment among the unit. In those cases, the sodomy rules were investigated and applied and the homosexual member was discharged.

With don’t ask don’t tell, it can be simply an article 15 discharge based on the single statement - “I’m Gay.”

12

Nowadays, with the government trying to avoid as many lawsuits as it can, you just get a general discharge. Separating prior to retirement doesn’t grant you a whole lot of benefits, but if you have any coming to you, you get to keep them.

Just to clarify the policy, the military is not allowed to ask if you’re gay unless they have sufficient evidence to open an investigation. Sufficient evidence is subjective, but the standard isn’t as rigorous as, say, getting a warrant in a civilian court, and investigations can often be open as the result of a complaint from peer or superior (with adequately convincing testimony). Once the investigation is open, the military can ask you if you’re gay.

Note that they can only kick you out for doing gay things, not just for being gay. However, the criteria for “gay things” are very clearly spelled out, and believe or not, saying “I’m gay” constitutes a homosexual act. So if they ask if you’re gay and you say yes, you’re done. If you say no but they have sufficient evidence to think you’ve committed homosexual acts, you’re done. This is all complicated by the fact that you’ve violated the UCMJ and you also lied on the form that you signed when you joined where you swore you wouldn’t do gay things. So they have all kinds of authoritiy to give you the boot at that point.

However, DADT has created an environment where you’re allowed to join if you’re gay, and the military won’t ask if you’re gay, and as long as you don’t do any gay things, including being openly gay, then the military will leave you alone. But sometimes homophobes can’t leave well enough alone, and you get outed despite your discretion, and lord knows that’s a lawsuit waiting to happen, so the standard practice has just been to quietly show you the door with a general discharge and a “no hard feelings” pat on the back. I’m sure there’s exceptions, though.

13

This explains a lot. Thank you.

14

I always thought of the policy as a “get out of jail free” card. Of course, it might not seem like that if you joined because you weren’t qualified for anything, but I keep reading about dozens, or even hundreds of desparately needed interpreters and translators being tossed for being gay and I have assumed (with no evidence, to be sure) that they have decided that there are better things to do in this life than avoiding IEDs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Correct me if I am wrong.

15

Sticking to facts since this is GQ; I listen to a lot NPR and they mention just about any time a gay person is kicked out of the military. So far all of the people who were kicked out say that they didn’t want to leave and wish that they were still serving their country. I take their statements at face value, but whether or not they’re telling the truth is a discussion better suited for GD.

16

I can’t remember the book, but I remember reading that Gays in the 1970s and 1980s were saying that They were friends of Dorothy. The military decided if they could find this Dorothy person, they’d be able to find all the gays in the military.

A lot of money was put into this investigation, but I don’t remember if they did find Dorothy.

17

The “Friends of Dorothy” story is mentioned in Randy Shilts’ “Conduct Unbecoming”, I know.

18

Just for context, the number of such discharges appears to be about 13,000 in fifteen years of DADT and currently averages about two per day.

19

:eek: Wow. I’m speechless.

20

Friends of Dorothy are references to Judy Garland of Wizard of Oz fame. Though never out, she was seen as a gay Icon.