What if you were making, say…1/2 of what you’re making now? Would they still make you pay the same percentage? I don’t understand how this can be a hard and fast rule.
I think your first step is to get a decent lawyer who is actually willing to fight for you in court.
Then if these bills don’t get knocked down to a level you can afford, you talk to your brother about how to set yourself up to declare bankruptcy.
But don’t go asking family for money. It just gets ugly. Always.
Yup. I understand that maybe if you’re actually below the poverty line, things loosen up, but if you making even a fifth of what I’m earning, it’s 17% of gross income , less FICA and SS, for the first child and 25% for the second. No wiggle room, no if, ands, or buts.
If I were in the situation, I’d be inclined to foot the expenses of the tuition, and if situations arose where I needed help with a new car or maybe even a vacation, I’d possibly then ask the brother for help. I’d have a hard time asking for 50 grand at all, much less to cover the contingency of not being able to afford luxuries. While I know zip about your situation or your brother’s, if it were me I’d find it hard to assume that no matter how well off he is, he has a large amount in disposable cash ready for loaning. But then, I have a hard time asking for even extremely short term loans for necessities, I doubt I’d be able to ask for a loan for a nicety.
I couldn’t agree more. I have borrowed from and loaned to family before, and even when agreed upon payment terms are met, my life was miserable the whole time. Favors get called in for it that are sometimes very difficult to meet, even long after the financial debt has been repaid. I prefer NOT to be the borrower.
If I had the cash, though, my siblings mean enough to me that I would help them out if they were in a financial bind. Family means supporting each other through tough times, be that with a shoulder to cry on, a monetary gift of some sort, or just being there when you need them. If it can be given, they get it from me. Until they abuse that privledge, it will be true until the day I die. We are not very close, so being there when they need me is the best way I have of showing them that I really do care.
I couldn’t see borrowing OR loaning money from family, no matter how dire the straights, with the repayment terms being a life insurance policy. I -could- see that as being collateral though. “Look, I’m desperate, I need to borrow 50k. I plan on repaying you X amount every month until it’s paid off, and I’ll take out this life insurance policy for 50k with you as a beneficiary in the event that I die before I’ve repaid you”. Everyone wins. The loan is being paid back, the life insurance policy is proof of payment if something happens to me before I’ve paid it off, and when the loan is paid off, I can change the beneficiary to be my spouse or child. Sounds like everyone wins that way.
A very dear friend my mine said it best… “Never loan what you cannot lose”, and I agree with that comment wholeheartedly. However, I’d consider a loan of that size with a repayment plan AND some sort of collateral, assuming I could get ahold of it to help out family.
I do agree with the other posters, though. Before you go the route of asking for assistance, I think you need to double check your legal counsel. I realize that the laws are biased against the non-custodial parent, which is more often than not the male parent, and that fathers get a raw deal quite often. But this situation smacks of unfairness in ways that can’t be legal. You might be better served asking for assistance from your brother in fighting this nonesense.
It’s cracking me up, in a very bitter way of course, that the basic feedback I’ve gotten on my legal situation is “This is so insane it couldn’t possibly be true except in the Bizzaro world.” I’ve been gojng through this inflexible 17/25% per child rule for over 10 years, and this “You pay whatever the judge says you pay for tuition” for the last few years, and I had a hard time geting adjusted to the reality of it through several top lawyers, all of whom have explained to me that’s how it works in NY state, no way around it.
Sorry to dismay all you fine non-lawyers about the way the law works against non-custodial parents with self-entitled ex-spouses, but if any lawyers want to explain the law to me otherwise I’d be interested in hearing it.
So if you’re a kid who doesn’t have the money to go to a nice college on her own, your best bet is to split up your parents? This information coulda helped me out eight years ago. Thanks for nothing, SDMB.
And I would never ask for that kind of money from a family member no matter how much he or she made. OTOH, if I were the brother, and that kind of money really was digging in the couch money to me, I’d help you out and not expect repayment. But I don’t think it’s proper to ask. And the life insurance thing just seems weird, what if he dies before you do? Sure, his kids might get it, but it’s not the same as repaying the loan. And doesn’t that have the possibility of fucking up your life further down the line (if you have to borrow against it for medical services, etc)?
(bolding added)
How is this fund set up? Is it in a Coverdell? Is it actually an asset in your daughter’s name or with your daughter(s) listed as the beneficiary?
As you stated it, it sounds as if these funds might not be used as intended. Does the court know about these funds and does it make any difference?
I don’t NOT believe you, I am just in disbelief that a state can (1) make you pay support for a child who is over 18 (thus not a child) and (2) make you pay for college expenses. I just have never ever heard of such a thing in my life. I really want to know what state you live in (New York, right?)
As far as I have always known, no parent is required by the government to pay for a college education, much less an expensive private one. How could it be that when a parent becomes divorced, all of a sudden the parent are required to pay for a college education without any regard for that parent’s income level, to the point that your paycheck could be garnished?
Is it perhaps part of your divorce settlement or child support agreement that you pay for college, or that you match what your ex-wife is spending? Or is this a state law that applies to everyone?
Is your brother especially close to your daughter (perhaps the godfather)? If so, I’d have her write a letter to him asking for a contribution to her education. A gift, and not a loan, and one he can make directly to the school if he so chooses.
The law in NY extends to 21, not 18. A judge can also, at his discretion, make you pay for education. NY child support FAQ
I believe you with all my heart!!! My uncle was told that he would have to pay more child support so his bitch of an ex wife could increase “her and her children’s standard of living” Never mind her standard of living was just fine. Never mind she used the child support payments for her clothes, her vacations, etc. The judge even admitted that he didn’t know how my aunt and uncle were going to pay but they had to pay. Our family ended up having to foot some of the payments. It is a bullshit system that victimizes. There are some states that are so pro ex-wife that they will send a man to the homeless shelter instead of telling the ex to learn to live within her means. :mad: THIS IS A BIZARRO WORLD and this stuff happens all the time. I am so sorry it is happening to you.
You need to get a hold of a father’s advocacy group or a men’s advocacy group and find out if there is anything they can do including putting pressure on key people.
Keep your chin up and keep us all posted!
You should have mentioned earlier that you live in New York, which is the only state without no-fault divorces in the union. The multi-millionaires on Wall Street have well and truly screwed up custody cases for average people in this state.
Your best bet is to talk to your children and educate them about the financial situation you’re in. They should know what bankruptcy entails.
You’re second option is to buy a new econobox now, quit your job, and start working as a pizza delivery guy in a different state where $25,000 will get you a semi-decent living. Doesn’t make you a nice human being, but the law leaves you no choice.
From Cheesesteak’s link
I know grad students who have combined family incomes of $80,000, who pay $30,000 a year in rent. $80k is chump change in New York, even if the law doesn’t recognize it.
I admit I know nothing of divorce laws or NY laws.
Did some more thinking on this, and decided that instead of asking your bro, I’d recommend the churchmouse route. Basically figuring you got yourself into this situation, so you should get yourself out of it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there are a bunch of folk who can’t afford even the occasional CD or vacation. Might need to move into a crappier place as well.
You say it would take you more than 10 years to pay? Are you saying the court is requiring that you go into debt to pay for college? Can they actually order you to pay more than you make (minus a subsistence existence for yourself?) If so, that really sucks. Good luck making it through.
Just to provide a clearer picture, would you be willing to provide the roughest estimates of your income, your bare minimum subsistence costs, and what you are legally obligated to pay in terms of child support/education/alimony/etc.?
Did you say you have to pay 42% of your gross income to your 2 kids PLUS tuition? How old are the kids now, and how long must you pay it?
For example, considering tuition alone, if you net $100G a year, had to pay $20g to survive essentially in poverty, and had 3 kids who were a freshman, soph, and jr. at Harvard (approx $45g/yr):
if you were required to pay 100% of the tuition it would be:
year 1: $135g (exceeds income)
year 2: $135g (exceeds income)
year 3: $90g (90% of income, 4.5X wages retained)
year 4: $45g (2.5X wages retained)
If you had to pay 1/2, it would be:
year 1: $67.5g
year 2: $67.5g
year 3: $45g
year 4: $22.5g
Also, I was unclear from the above discussion. Does your obligation end when they turn 21? If not, what if they take 5 years to finish undergrad? What if they want to go to med school?
Sure sounds like a fucked up system. I would certainly let my kids know exactly how much their chosen expensive education was impacting me financially. I would be pretty disappointed if my kids expected me to go into the poor house to pay for an elite-priced education.
If my kids were unwilling to understand the burden they were imposing upon me, I’d be tempted to impoverish myself for the few years required until you are both emancipated from each other. Are there any restrictions against changing your job situation to avoid support? Of course, the opposite would be tantamount to involuntary servitude.
Hell, you might have been better off if you had killed your spouse, instead of just divorcing her!
OP, I actually like your attitude, in that you believe your children getting this education is a good thing. I had a good friend in HS who, all throughout HS was being groomed to excel, pick a great college and aim high in her ambitions. Then, her dad hooked up with the secretary and after her parents got divorced in her junior or senior year, college for her and her sisters was not even on his radar screen. It was like they weren’t even his kids anymore. And, since colleges took his income into account, it was essentially impossible for her to get financial aid. This was some real ugliness and heartbreak. So be glad you aren’t that guy. Even if you don’t feel the decision to go to these expensive colleges was 100% fair, I bet when it’s all over you will feel much better about yourself than that guy does.
My suggestion is to ask your brother for financial advice. With his connections as a successful businessman, can he help you find some good-paying consulting opportunities? Are your skills of any use to his business? Does he have a vacation home you could use to have inexpensive vacations? Does he have friends who need house-sitting, ditto for the inexpensive vacations? Can he give you a good deal on a quality used car? Maybe he will come up with the loan idea on his own.
It sounds like you’re headed for some tight financial times, but (no offense) not true poverty like you won’t be going to the grocery store the last week of the month. One of my friends in college had an immigrant single mom who worked 3 jobs to put him through school (UPS, running a restaurant and something else-restaurant-supply related). There is a virtue in being willing to sacrifice for your children. I also think it’s fair for you to make them aware of what it’s costing you,
so they appreciate the opportunity they’re getting.
One last thing -make sure your kids are applying for merit-based scholarships. If they can get into these good schools, they should be able to come up with something on their own behalf.
No, it’s not specifically earmarked as a College Tuition account, so my all my lawyers over the years (all top-notch, and not all in the same firm) have told me that these sums can’t be considered in allocating tuition expenses if they’re just “in trust” accounts with the my ex-wife’s parents listed as the trustees. (Not sure if “trustees” is the right word.) IOW, the grandparents could just claim “This is between my daughter and her ex-husband. We never said this money is intended to pay for college” (though, in fact, that’s exactly why they set it up.) This is partly why my ex- is encouraging the girls to apply to expensive colleges–it doesn’t cost her a nickel where they go to school but it costs me a great deal.
I think I’ve got the cheapest apartment in NYC right now.
Yup. My lawyer says appealing to the court by saying “I don’t have that kind of scratch” just results in their saying, in effect, “Not my problem. Get it.”
No. It’s 17% for the first kid, then 25% for the first two kids combined, and so on. I don’t know where it stops, but it probably does stop at some level.
19 and 15. Until they turn 21.
Yup. That’s their lookout, unless I’m feelilng generous. They take out loans, I guess, like everyone else.
My older daughter takes after her mom, feels entitled to the very best from people she’s treated shabbily. I don’t think letting her know anything would mean much to her, at least not at this point in her life. My younger one is a lovely, sweet, generous, brilliant, compassionate person whom I would do anything for, and if I could spare her a scintilla of guilt over her education I’d do that gladly. I really don’t begrudge her the best education she can get, and I’m willing to live in poverty if that’s what’s called for. The stuff about my brother is just seeing if the worst poverty could be averted with no real pain to anyone. If my brother has the money and is happy to lend it so I have a slightly less stressful life, I’m happy to accept his generosity. If not, then not, and I’ll have to muddle through somehow.
I’ve got my dream job in some ways: I’ve got total job security (tenure at a university) and I enjoy what I do–the downside is that I can’t give up this job and then resume my career in a couple of years. Another downside is that this job pays in terms of satisfaction, and interesting challenges, not folding green, so when I get hit for extra charges (and I’m even talking about what my legal bills have been, or will be) it cuts right into my standard of life.
Final sentence should read :
“I’ve got total job security (tenure at a university) and I enjoy what I do–the downside is that I can’t give up this job and then resume my career in a couple of years. Another downside is that this job pays in terms of satisfaction, and interesting challenges, not folding green, so when I get hit for extra charges (and I’m not even talking about what my legal bills have been, or will be) it cuts right into my standard of life.”
Really sounds like a shitty situation.
I’ve got 3 teens myself, and absent extreme circumstances I just don’t see the value of an expensive private school.
But there are many people in my area who act as tho I and my eldest are failures because she chose a state school.
The suggestion that you approach your bro “for advice” may be a good middle ground.
If he accompanies his advice with generosity, you can decide whether to accept - without having risked the awkwardness of asking.
Don’t see how such a request could do anythong but strengthen your relationship.
And even if he gives no $, his financial expertise might ease your burden somewhat.
Good luck.
Final thought - by NYC do you mean Manhattan? Or are you out in Brooklyn or such and commuting? Might be an option, as unpleasant as it may seem.
I can see how that that sort of ploy might work prior to the kids going to college, but what happens when the bills start coming due and the ex-wife starts using the funds from her parents to cover her share of the college expenses?
In other words, how does the ex-wife expect to get away with telling the judge that that these funds are not set aside for college and then turning around and using the funds for exactly that? Or am I missing something?
Did you never set aside funds yourself for your kids education? If not, was it because of this fund the grandparents set aside? Are the grandparents as rotten as the ex-wife?