Would I be insulting my brother? (kinda long, a bit complicated)

In My Humble Opinion
1

We’re not especially close geographically (we live 2000 miles apart and see each other every year or so, and talk on the phone every few weeks), and we’re both your typical emotionally closed-off males (given that, I think we’d both privately agree that we are fond of each other, though the subject never comes up in conversation) and we’ve helped each other out from time to time financially (he’s given more help than I have, and more recently: I once lent him a couple of thousand dollars to start up his business, and he helped me out with a larger loan when I was going through my divorce).

But now I’m going through something of a financial crisis–I have kids going through very expensive private colleges (in which I had no say, not that I would begrudge them an education nor even feel good about their attending for free the fairly expensive, but only so-so, private college I teach in) and I’m going to be some huge figure in the hole (50,000 to 150,000 dollars, depending on the financial aid package they receive). I can swing it, but only at a cost of living like a churchmouse for the next ten years–no vacations, no social life to speak of, no real expenses for recreation, and working every opportunity I get to earn some extra money. Not very attractive.

But here’s my real concern. My brother’s doing really well. His business now pulls in a gross amount about twenty or thirty times my annual salary, and he spends on a typical three-day golfing weekend what I take home in two or three months’ worth of paychecks. He’s very comfortable, IOW.

But being a closed-off male, I’m not sure if he’s really fully comprehending of my looming financial plight. “Yeah, that’s rough,” he’ll say sympathetically when I bitch about my problems on the phone. “Christ, you’re really up against it, aren’t you?” Maybe if I asked him for another loan (I repaid the first one a long time ago), he’d write me a check, but he’s waiting for me to ask.

But here’s the thing: Repaying that loan. The only way I could repay a loan, that would essentially be for the purpose of easing my lifestyle over the next ten years (allowing me to buy a car when my present eleven-year-old car gives out, taking a vacation every two or three years, buying a new CD every few months), would be to put off the repayment far into the future. (We’re both in our early fifties.) What I’m trying to figure out is if it would be absurd for me to suggest paying of the loan in an unconventional way: if he lent me 50,000 dollars, say, over the next few years (which I think he could easily afford to do, not sure but I think he’d never really notice it) , could I offer to leave him 50,000 dollars (or 50,000 plus an interest dividend) in my will that I wasn’t planning to leave him? (My youngest daughter is my sole heir right now). Could I agree to take out a life insurance policy naming him as beneficiary? (I actually have one at work that names my daughters as beneficiaries, that I could switch over to include him).

Is either option an insult? I’d be saying in effect, “I want a huge sum of money from you that I have no real intention of repaying as long as I live, but I’ll repay it whenever I die–how about it, bro?” It makes a little sense to me, but sounds, I don’t know, cheesy and vaguely insulting and, maybe, even unmanly. I’m not even sure what’s bothering me about this prospect but I know I feel very uncomfortable even broaching the subject with him. I’m having trouble connecting the emotional/rational hemispheres of my brain over this. How come?

2

I’d say it’s a lousy deal. What if you get married again, or if you die before him. If I were in your situation, I think I’d concentrate on increasing my income and maybe explain to the daughter what you’re up against. I understand sacrifice for children, but you’ve got to temper that w/ your right to have a reasonable life. I doubt your daughter would be comfortable w/ you living the life of a pauper so she could go to some elitist school.

3

What on earth entitles your children to a fully paid college education? Is that in your divorce decree? We simply sat our son down, said we’ll pony up 6k annually, his dad is giving him 15k annually and he still decided to attend American University, at a whopping 40k. His choice, his student loans.

As for the loan from your brother, I don’t know if that would be insulting. Personally, I never loan money without the assumption that I may never see it again.

4

As far as asking your brother for the loan - well, it sounds like you have a decent enough relationship that the worst he can do is say “no” and the best he could do would be to sit you down and talk you out of going in the poor house for ten years to send your kids to a fancy college.

I know some states have weird child custody laws, and if you live in one of those, or if you have somehow been mandated that you have to pay the college fees, you can ignore the rest of this. Barring that, WTF? Why can’t you just say “no” to the kids, or “I will give you $X/year”, $X being a decent sum but not one that you have to live like a pauper for ten years to come up with?

5

Well, I really want to stick with the brother issue, but my ex-wife is a self-entitled bitch whose parents have set aside a healthy fund for my daughter’s college education, and my ex- is taking me through court now arguing that I should bear half the college costs. My lawyer tells me that some judges just say “Pay whatever the tuition bills are, or we’ll just have it deducted from your paycheck” while other judges mandate that you pay half the tuition rate of the state university system (which is where I get the lower figure from, the $50,000). He tells me that arguments that “I will not pay a nickel after the child turns 18” don’t go over in this state at all.

Aside from that, as I said, is the principle that I WANT to pay something for my girls’ education. I just have no money set aside for it.

6

I’d be okay in leaving the money to his heirs, or to anyone he designates (he has some adopted kids of his own, who are adults.) If I marry, I’d simply have to explain to my new wife that I owe money to my brother and I have a clause in my will (or an insurance policy) leaving x amount to him.

7

It would be insulting and he’d think you’re a silly, chiseling loon. If you have gotten the point that you are making a middle to upper middle class income but are living penuriously because you are are sending 3 kids on full rides to expensive private colleges that’s an obligation you decided to undertake. There are are certainly other options available in excellent state colleges etc that would cost a fraction of that.

Asking him to (in effect) supplement your lifestyle after deciding to be a financial hero to your kids is kind of lame, and the fact that he has not offered to help despite your tales of woe tells you all you need to know re his baseline attitude on this issue (ie “It’s sad but it’s your problem, suck it up”).

If you haven’t taken one out already a home equity loan might be a better long term viable alternative. It might also be possible to see if there is financial assistance available in the form of scholarships & grants if they are B students or better. The maximum allowable (parental) incomes are surprisingly high these days.

Beyond this, if their grades are decent they can each apply for college loans (for themselves) this will reduce your current load and let them shoulder some of the re-payment after they graduate.

8

I agree with those on the “you don’t owe them your life” approach to higher education. We’d all love to give our kids the best if we can afford it. It doesn’t sound like you can without putting yourself into the poorhouse. It’s not fair and it doesn’t sound like you really want to borrow from Peter to pay Paul.

Maybe you could make part of the educational support to your kids a “loan” to them, much like a conventional educational loan? If I remember correctly, you are somewhat estranged from the one daughter and so this probably wouldn’t be an option with her, but the younger one?

I really don’t think it’s fair for anyone for you to put yourself in this financial position.

9

Ditto. My parents gave me an initial push on the first year and the rest of it was student loans…and that was plenty for me.

Tell them you’ll support them as much as you can and explain why. You shouldn’t feel the need to break yourself for them, even if they are your children.

If you still feel guilty about it after they graduate, you can always help them out with the payments later on.

10

Again, I’m NOT choosing to send a nickel to my kids. I 'd actually like to, but the hardship I’m describing is caused by child-support payments plus a top-of-the-line education that is being imposed on me by the court, that has the power to garnish my paycheck. This is completely non-voluntary. I think it’s great that they’re getting a good education, but I have zero say over where they go to school. Wasn’t asked, wasn’t consulted, just handed a whopping tuition bill and told to pay it.

At least I understand from my attorney that that’s what WILL happen next year. I’m trying to prepare for what I’ll do if that happens.

11

Basically you’re just asking your brother, who you’re not too close with, for a handout. That’s not too cool. Your divorce situation is not his responsibility.

12

I’m trying to think of it from his end. He’s got that amount of money invested many times over, so I’m asking him if he could take the 50,000 he has invested in Amalgamated Mutual Widgets and invest it in YourBrother’sLife. Instead of the 50,000 maybe going up and maybe going down, he gets a guaranteed payoff. Say I’m willling to make him the beneficiary of a $100,000 policy in exchange for 50,000 now? If I die in the next ten years, he’s doubled his money guaranteed, which is a decent payout on the investment. If I live much longer, he makes less, so I would be willing to come up with an alternate date for repayment in total (i.e., if I’m still alive in ten years, I’d repay the 100,000 in full, or else take out an additional sum of insurance to make it worth his while).

Maybe I’m being a selfish prick here, but in business terms this seems like a fair deal, as long as he has his investment protected. It’s not as though he’s likely to need that 50,000 in the next ten years, or that he’ll lose any money by this deal, or that he wouldn’t be glad to help me out. The part that bothers me is I’ve made it plain that I’m in a spot, and he hasn’t offered to help, which I can’t read clearly as a lack of empathy or a lack of understanding. If it’s empathy he lacks, well, I don’t think there’s any point in showing him where he’s wrong. (I understand where he might have a “Hey, it’s your problem, bro” attitide, though I wouldn’t have that attiutude myself, I don’t think). But if it’s understanding, that’s something I could explain to him and maybe persuade him that he’ll make out okay, and I will appreciate the help.

13

If I had a lot of money, and my sister was going through what you are I would do it in a minute. Same deal, we live far apart from each other, see each other once a year and talk about once a month. Especially if I knew that you were being forced to pay for the expensive education.

If you ask your brother make sure he understands how little control you have over the situation.

14

Try getting ahold of one of those Father’s Rights Advocacy groups. This seems grossly unfair. I don’t see how a judge can force you to provide 1/2 of the cost of just ANY school. I saw your post about “some judges this, and some judges that” and that doesn’t seem fair, either (though totally believeable). You need someone in your corner.

15

Two thoughts - it is hard for me to imagine how you got into a situation where you are legally obligated to pay for college expenses that are beyond your means. Either your lawyer was corrupt or incompetent, or some info is missing. But you maintain that that is the case, so I readily accept it as true. If you are currently dealing with the schmuck who got you into this situation, you might wish to investigate enlisting different counsel to assist you in extricating yourself.

Be that as it may, I imagine that if I were in a very favorable financial situation one of the things I would enjoy most is sharing wealth’s comfort and convenience with my friends and family. That is - I wouldn’t repeatedly bailout or shore up fuck-ups or lazy bums, but I would certainly want to take passengers along for my comfortable ride.

And from what you say of your situation, this desired “loan” isn’t exclusively for your personal advantage, you aren’t a repeat beggar, etc. So I don’t see a real problem with presenting the facts to your brother pretty much as you presented them to us. Essentially, you are in a jam beyond your control regarding your kids’ college expenses. There is a limited amount and time involved. Tho you want and intend to repay him, it would really help you if you could investigate creative repayment methods.

One thing my dad taught me is there’s generally no harm in asking, so long as you are willing to accept “No” for an answer.

16

I’m not intimate with your situation, but I think you’d be asking your brother to subsidize the wrong thing. Instead of asking him for a loan for your lifestyle, you should ask him for a loan for your kids’ education. I mean, if you explain the situation to him, say that you didn’t expect such a whopping tuition bill that you have no control over, and turn your ex into a common enemy (hehe), then he might be more willing to loan you the money for his niece’s/nephew’s education. Essentially, you’d still be asking money for the same thing (I mean, it doesn’t matter if the money goes to you or your kids; it’s still the same amount of money), it would just be framing the request differently.
I also don’t think that putting him in your will would be a sufficient repayment of the loan. There are just too many "what if"s, such as “what if your estate can’t pay off the loan?” Instead, try to set up a repayment schedule, something that works for both of you.
Also, there are some student loans that parents take out. You might want to look into that, too.

17

Woah. I am simply dumbfounded that the state can force you to pay for an expensive private college. I thought child support laws ended when the child turns 18. Are you paying back child support? If not, this seems extremely unfair.

A kid with parents who are still together is not entitled to any sort of payment for college. But a kid whose parents are divorced, they are guaranteed payment for college, to the extent that you could have your paycheck garnished? Unbelieveable!! I am just shocked.

18

I would not try and play this as an investment for him. If he’s going to make a good return on his investment, then you’re going to be on the hook for just as much as if you borrowed from a bank. If paying him back is easier than paying back a bank, it means that it’s possible he won’t get as much money back as the bank, thus it’s NOT as good an investment.

I would not consider it an investment, so much as helping out a family member who is in dire straits. Maybe what you really need is more legal support, you shouldn’t have to go into tens of thousands of dollars of debt to make child support payments. Legally, aren’t you supposed to have a survivable amount of income after the payments are taken?

19

I’m also kind of kind of wondering how this played out. I can see being responsible for contributing to a kid’s education, but a legally mandated court directive that it shall be at a private institution of their choice, irrespective of cost seems a bit unusual.

I know you love your kids and you might feel your lawyer is wonderful, but if the legal advice you’ve received at this point (based on the snapshot you’ve offered) essentially seems to be “suck it up”, I’d really be searching for an alternative legal opinion. It sounds like you’re being played.

20

I think either you haven’t posed the question to the attorney properly, or your state laws are goofy, or college financing has changed a LOT since I was in school. I’ve been the child in this equation, and at the time, child support and college expenses were combined into a total figure, not each considered separately as if the other didn’t exist. Plus schools, especially private ones, have a fair amount of discretion in deciding how to allocate their own scholarship (grant) money from their endowments (and for that matter, every school I applied to calculated parents’ ability to pay separately from each other in the case of divorced parents). And IME nobody expects a parent to pauper him/herself to send three children to private schools.

Now in your situation, your wife may well be expected by the school to contribute significantly more to your children’s education if her resources are greater, and especially if she is the custodial parent. (And my understanding is that the Federal aid formula doesn’t take into account the value of a primary residence anymore.) How it worked out in my situation was this: Mom made practically nothing, so was expected to contribute practically nothing (and the amount was the same for all 4 sachools where I was given a financial aid package). Dad made about 4 - 5 times what Mom did, but was not the custodial parent.

Of the 4 schools I was accepted to, 2 weren’t ones I ended up wanting to go to anyway (one of which Dad refused to submit information to, so they never gave me a financial aid package). The third asked an amount from Dad that I knew he was never going to cough up, though IMO he could certainly have afforded to. The fourth school (NYU) decided in their discretion that as Dad was noncustodial, they would consider his contribution to be the amount he was already paying for me in child support, asked a similar amount from Mom, and then gave me a full-tuition grant. (The rest, maybe $5k a year, was a combination of work-study, summer earnings, and student loans that I took out.)

So the situation may not be nearly as dire as you think, especially if you actually have no idea what kind of numbers you’re working with at this point. Sometimes the most expensive schools can offer the best aid packages.