Would I REALLY be crazy to buy a CPO German luxury sport-sedan?

In My Humble Opinion
1

My 2002 Volkswagen GTI is getting a bit long in the tooth, with multiple broken plastic interior pieces, a few nonfunctional electrical components, dings and dents in the body, and a perpetually-on Malfunction Indicator Lamp, and now, the latest insult, a broken oil dipstick sleeve that prevents me from accurately checking the oil. Plus, I’ve driven the same car for almost 12 years. It’s time to move on. I’ve begun window-shopping online for a new car.

I’ve saved up a good bit of money over the past few years, and thus am looking in the high 20’s to low 30’s price range. Something like a new Nissan Altima or Ford Fusion. (I’m also intrigued by the idea of a compact crossover SUV; the Ford Escape looks really good on paper.) However, recently I got to thinking–for the same price, I could get a certified pre-owned BMW 3 Series or Audi A4! Yes, I know these cars aren’t the most reliable and repairs are expensive, but with a CPO car, I’d have 2-3 years of warranty. I’m a medical resident, and by the time the warranty runs out, I’ll have started a private-practice job and would be able to repair or replace the car if necessary.

I have a friend who’s into cars, to whom I mentioned this idea, and he scoffed. He basically said he would never buy a German car because of the reliability issues, and then started suggesting Acuras to me. The thing is, I like driving, and I really like that extremely solid, glued-to-the-road feeling. I don’t have tons of experience driving different cars, but I have been behind the wheel of a Bimmer a few times, and they do have a solidity and stability (even my Volkswagen does, to some extent) that Japanese and American cars I’ve driven don’t. It didn’t seem to matter to him that I was talking about getting a CPO car; he simply thought they were so unreliable that it would never be worth buying one.

The thing is, people said the same thing about reliability and expense of repairs when I bought my VW, and to be honest, while I don’t have a Japanese ownership experience to compare it to, I’ve been fine with it. The closest it came to “breaking down” was when 1 ignition coil went bad; it lost a lot of power and started running really rough, but I nursed it over to the dealership and it was fixed under warranty. It also had the infamous plastic-window-clip problem that was fixed under warranty. Beyond that, almost all the work I’ve had done to it was associated with normal wear and tear: break pads and rotors, wheel bearings, shock absorbers, a spring, and front sway bar bushings. The drivetrain has been perfect–no problems since that ignition coil. Incredibly, though I pretty much learned manual transmission on this car, the original clutch is holding up at 132,000 miles. The worst expense I’ve had with it was a new radiator and water pump at around 70k miles, but even that didn’t bother me too much. Yes, parts and labor for all of the above probably ran higher than a Honda would, but to me it was worth it, because I like driving and I like my car.

So, if the above is what owning a BMW or Audi would be like, I’m more than OK with it. One or two trips to the dealership per year to get something fixed under warranty won’t bother me at all, and as I said, once the warranty runs out, I’ll deal with it one way or another. That said, I’ve found plenty of anecdotes online expressing the same sentiment as my friend did above: these cars aren’t worth it, they’re money pits, they’ll spend more time in the shop than you spend driving them, you’ll rue the day you ever bought it and after 6 months you’ll trade it in for a Japanese car. The thing is, people said the same thing about my VW, and it hasn’t been true. I’ve also found plenty of anecdotes online from people saying they’ve had only 1-2 minor issues per year with these cars and that reports of their unreliability have been greatly exaggerated.

The only thing that would completely prevent me from buying such a car is if there were a significant possibility of it being so unreliable that it could literally strand me by the side of the road–if I’m on my way to my afternoon clinic, and the engine totally dies, and I have to coast to the shoulder and call a tow truck and my afternoon is shot, well, that’s unacceptable. Barring that, however, I’m having a hard time understanding what would be so bad about owning such a car if one is OK with the occasional minor inconvenience my VW has given me.

(There is also the practical consideration that whatever I get is going to be my only car, meaning, the one I will have to take even if I have to drive through/park in a bad neighborhood, and the one that will spend many winter days coated with salty slush, and, in the case of a rear-wheel-drive BMW, might have insufficient grip for winter driving unless I shell out the additional cash to put snow tires on it. But that is a separate consideration from the reliability issue.)

TL;DR version: Will a BMW or Audi strand me by the side of the road?

2

Well, I have to admit that my 2003 330i did strand me on the side of the road, but I was kinda expecting it. The fuel pump was dying and I decided to risk driving it instead of just getting it towed. Well, it still partly saved on the tow cost.

I dunno; I’ve been happy with my car. It’s cost a few grand in repairs over more than 10 years. Probably more than a Japanese car, but not really that much in the grand scheme of things. As you say, Japanese cars just don’t have the right feel to them. My Bimmer still drives like it’s brand new.

If road feel is important to you, and especially if you like manuals with RWD, get the Bimmer. There just isn’t that much difference in reliability these days, no matter what the country. Aside from the very occasional lemon, repair costs on a newish car are always going to be a fairly small fraction of the total car’s cost.

3

I’ve got a 5 year old BMW 120d that I’ve had zero problems with. OK, it only has 30,000 miles on it so it isn’t an average 5 year old car, but still runs like new. I did splurge on a set of winter wheels/tyres because it is truly useless even in the feeble snow we get in the southern UK.

The perception (in the US) that German cars are expensive money pits simply doesn’t exist here. Here they’re seen as the pinnacle of quality and reliability.

4

Not crazy at all. If you do your homework on the models you are considering and choose a low mileage car with a full service record (1 owner, etc.) you will have made a good decision. If you buy a more recent model, you might even get one with some kind of factory warranty remaining and have the option to buy an extension (from manufacturer - not dealer) for additional peace of mind.

For winter driving, an AWD car would be better and both Audi and BMW offer models with that kind of setup. RWD cars are not the nightmare on winter roads they used to be because of modern traction control and anti-lock brakes. You don’t need to worry much about that if you keep the car out of the snow banks.

I favour german engineering to American or Asian made cars as well. I like pretty much everything about the teutonic sport sedans. My daily driver/commuter car is one very similar to what you’re currently driving. It’s a 2000 VW Jetta GLX with the VR6 engine. I bought it new. It currently has the same mileage as yours. Also a manual with original clutch. Mine sounds like it’s in better condition overall and I’m a bit obsessive about car maintenance because, like you, I do not ever want to be stranded on the side of the road because I neglected to address known problems. I’ve been fortunate in that it has never happened to me. But I have done the same repairs as you over the years: water pump, ignition coil, radiator, etc… plus just wear and tear things like brakes and suspension updates, belts, tensioner, brake and coolant fluid flushes… things of that nature. The car is currently running like a champ and I enjoy it immensely every time I get behind the wheel. In a matter of a week or two, the car will be going to my daughter. I taught her to drive on this car (yes, on a manual and the clutch is still in great shape). It’s a safe car, it’s a reliable car and if she doesn’t do anything stupid, it should last her through college with some continued attention to maintenance.

My other car is true German sport sedan. I just love the hell out of it and I want to keep the mileage down on it so I’m also in the market for a gently used German sport sedan or coupe that I can drive to work and back (to replace my Jetta). I’m looking at the obvious suspects… VW, BMW, Audi, MB. It may take me up to a year to pick just the right one but I’m a patient man.

All that to say, I think you’d do well by going with ze germans. Just apply the same kind of smarts you would in buying any used car. Life’s too short not to drive what you like.

5

Part of that is because they don’t sell cars like your 120d in the states (so quit teasing us with yours :)). Benz and BMW seem to think that introducing their smaller or less opulently-equipped cars in the states will tarnish their reputation as luxury car makers and so even the lowest end of what they sell here are pretty decently equipped luxury cars. And all those bells-n-whistles and go-fast things under the hood pretty invariably adds up to less reliability.

But, yeah, as the others in the thread have said, it doesn’t add up to THAT much less reliability. Go for it, OP!

6

As long as you’re looking at BMW and Audi, give Porsche a once over too. It may well not be right for you but the Cayenne S was one of the best cars I ever owned. They’re a blast to drive, are extremely well crafted and safe and while I had some minor repair issues it was so much less that what I’d been prepared to encounter. When I traded it in with over 100k on it that damn thing still looked and ran brand new. The only reason I let it go was to get back into its outrageously fun older brother.

7

I say go for it, they are very safe cars as well. My husband walked away from a totaled 2007 Audi S4 with only a scratch on his elbow and a broken heart. He loved that car, bought it used in 2009 and had few problems with it, all of which were covered under warranty. He just bought a CPO S5 to replace it. Audi is pretty generous with loaners when the car is in for service, he took advantage of that twice in the 4 yrs he owned it.

Be aware that he did have to pay about $1500 more to get the car CPO.

8

I have pretty much bought exclusively VWs since the mid 90s. I have not had much trouble with them [other than occasionally on the older ones the adhesive on some of the trim really did not like us crossing the desert areas in the US and sort of melted so we had to re-adhere them when we got home:rolleyes:] and on my 2006 Jetta if you don’t put in the exact specific lamp bulb the little bulb out indicator stays lit [apparently there are 2 versions of the headlamp bulb, one that works but isn’t the correct one, and the correct one that also works:p]

And I might add, mrAru rolled my 1995 Jetta [2 months after I had finished paying it off:mad:] and walked away with bruises, scrapes and one moderately nasty looking evulsion on one forearm from broken glass. Rolling a Jetta at 70 MPH is not recommended for the car, however. It is actually very survivable for the passengers.

If you are interested in one of the small SUV/crossovers, I can recommend the Ford Kuga/Echo - we drove one around Germany and Holland a few years back and it was very comfortable, very solid feeling. We had it in diesel/manual which unfortunately is not available in the US. Ergonomically it was comfortable, and had room for 3 adults, all our luggage and my wheelchair. mrAru who is 5’7 and of medium build was very comfortable in the back seat.

9

Get a BMW. Best cars I’ve ever owned. People ask me why I have three. I tell them, “Because I haven’t bought the forth yet”.

10

I bought a 2001 Audi A4 CPO in 2004. It had (I think) 27k miles in its 3-ish years of existence, and it was exactly what I wanted, so I made an offer online and flew across the country to pick it up and drive back. It had a 2 year warranty tacked on, and I don’t think I ever needed to use it.

Here we are, it’s 2013 and I’m still driving the thing, I’m up to 140k miles and counting. Have had only a couple issues you might consider “serious,” and only one that completely incapacitated the car. I’m not a car guy so I can’t tell you what it was exactly, but basically the car was only firing on two cylinders so some stuff had to be replaced at a cost of about $1k.

I’ve been very happy with it.

11

I just bought a 2011 BMW 335i convertible, about two weeks ago. It’s not a CPO - I got it from CarMax. But it only had 10,025 miles on it, and has two years of manufacturer’s warranty left. I can’t speak for how it will work later in life, but it’s been a blast so far. It drives so much better than my old 2003 Mitsubishi Spyder.

CarMax also has a nice search feature - I told it to look for any 3 series convertible from 2011 or later. Every day it checked, and e-mailed me when one showed up.

One other point - one of the major reasons I ended up with the BMW is from my mechanic’s recommendation. And not because he’d get lots of work.
Enjoy, whatever you do!

12

That reminds me–what’s a good upper mileage limit for a car like this? There’s a CPO 2011 335i listed right now that has the option packages I’d want, is within driving distance, and is within my price range, but it’s got 36k miles on it. Would that cause any noticeable difference from a significantly lower-mileage car? I think back to when my VW had 36k on it, and it looked and felt like new, inside and out.

A housemate of mine actually bought a 2008 335i in 2011, that had only 15k miles on it. It wasn’t certified pre-owned, but it did have 1 year of factory warranty left, and I have no idea how much he paid for it. I’m kind of envious that he got one with such low mileage. Judging by the listings, a CPO one with such low mileage would be a bit out of my price range. And I really think I would want the peace of mind of a CPO warranty.

Has yours been garage-kept? Mine never has, and I’ve often wondered if some of its issues could be attributed to baking in UV rays all summer, and subjected to daily freeze-thaw cycles all winter.

My housemate mentioned above did the same thing (though not quite across the country; it was a 5-6 hour drive back for him.) I’d be interested in hearing more about how you negotiated this. E.g., is it hard to seal the deal without having seen the car I person?

Yes, if I got a Bimmer, I’d definitely want a manual. The selection is limited, though. Per cars.com, right now there are 794 CPO 3-series on sale in the USA right now with an automatic, and a grand total of… 69 with a manual. (There are also 310 unknowns, some of which may have manuals.) But if one is looking for certain packages, options, colors, mileage ranges, etc., while insisting on a manual, there might be literally none that meet one’s standards. It’s a shame, really–BMW is known for offering manuals on all its models because it’s supposedly a “driver’s car.” But I’m guessing the vast majority of CPO cars are coming off a lease, and let’s face it, the kind of person leasing a 3-series (I’m envisioning a 25-year-old chick wanting to show off the fact that she just got a promotion at her HR job) probably isn’t interested in driving a manual.

On a somewhat related note, is anyone else disappointed that the recent trend in cars is toward bland colors? Probably 90% of these CPO BMWs are either black, white, silver, or gray. I’d really like to get one with at least some color to it, but that might be too much to ask.

13

Many of these cars are coming off lease so they will be approximately 10-12K per year on the odometer. I’d obviously look for something in the lower ranges. But 36K for a 3 year old car is not much to worry about. Maintenance records and general condition of the car are going to be more important than a few thousand miles up or down.

If you are lucky and patient you’ll find a very low mileage car in your area. Most likely you won’t. You may need to travel much farther, maybe even cross country for the car you want. Alternatively, if you trust the seller and can get the car independently inspected (seller has to be willing to bring the car to the other garage), you can get the car shipped right to your door. It won’t cost you much more than travelling to get the car yourself. So there are options and dealers will work with you regardless of where you’re located.

The first few years of it’s life have been in that kind of environment. Half of it’s life has been in a garage. Past few years, not garaged but in a milder climate without road salt or much in the way of harsh winter weather. I know climate takes its toll on a car. Mine has been spared the extremes.

I’ve driven manual since I first got my license. It’s fun. I never thought I’d give it up. My most recent car only comes in a automatic but it has paddle shifters. I was reluctant at first. Now I’m a convert and a believer. The new auto transmissions are better than the stick you got in your GTI or on my GLX. They shift faster than any human rowing through gears and they are more efficient. Left in auto mode, they are almost as intuitive to speed changes and driving style. If I go with a VW for my next car, I will absolutely go with a DSG. The only reason I would get a manual now is if I bought an older classic, like an older model 911. So with regard to choosing your next BMW, I would not be too hasty about eliminating the autos. Go drive one. You may be surprised.

14

I guess I’ll be the downer in this lot.

Bought a 2000 323i CPO in July 2003 with 40kish miles. Traded it in December 2004 because CPO was about out on it and there was no way I could have afforded to keep the car.

The things I remember that went wrong:

  1. Front left turn signal socket burned out (yes, the socket)
  2. Front right turn signal socket burned out (yes, again, the socket)
  3. Plastic clips on the side of the interior sunshade broke TWICE. This would have been a $400+ job if not CPO.
  4. Water pump
  5. Fuel pump
  6. Entire rear end had to be replaced
  7. Had rear brakes replaced (not under warranty) and it was over $400. Drove it down the highway a few miles and the rear caliper locked up and smoke was pouring out of the wheel.
  8. Couple weeks after above brake job, heard a squealing when braking. Took it in and one of the brand new brake pads had, and I quote, “disintegrated, it’s just not there anymore - we’ve never seen that before!”
  9. More smaller things that I can’t remember

I BABY my cars, so it was not the way I was driving. Just one thing after another. If you look at the timeline above, you see this all happened in 1yr 5mos and the total if not on CPO would have been over $10,000.

Now, granted, my dealership sucked BADLY and I hated their service department, so it’s possible it could have been them, but after that, I was glad to be out of it.

Good luck in whatever you do!

15

I don’t get it; is this a testament to German cars’ reliability? “Incapacitated” is a big deal. How are you happy with that?

16

Are you suggesting that only german engineered cars are found incapacitated on the side of the road?

17

A flat tire or a dead alternator incapacitates the car, and yet I wouldn’t consider those a big deal. A $1k engine repair is discouraging on a relatively new car, but I wouldn’t put it in the lemon category on that alone. Apparently markdash still liked the car despite that one relatively major repair.

18

I’ve only had one incident which I would consider a “breakdown” and I’ve driven the car for 10 years and over 100k miles. That seems like a good ratio to me; am I wrong?

Edit: FWIW this happened in, I think, 2007, which means the car was 6-7 years old and had north of 100k miles on it. This incident didn’t happen when it was on the CPO warranty.

19

Having the CPO warranty and the mileage of the car removed a lot of the worry for me. I did of course do a test-drive at the dealership, but the photos didn’t show any issues and their inspection didn’t reveal any issues, either.

I did my research (Edmunds mostly, also some KBB and other pricing sites) to get a good idea of the value of the car. Negotiation was done via e-mail; they had listed the car for $X and I came in at $X-1000, which was still a good value for them. It was a good value for me since prices are inflated in CA, about $3k higher than a comparable car in North Carolina. I couldn’t play hardball since I was across the country and they weren’t sure I was even really interested, so I picked a price that I thought they would accept.

They accepted my offer, I made a $7k deposit via CC, then flew across the country and paid for the remainder.

20

Hmm… well, I would definitely be willing to go for a DSG if one were available on the model I was considering. And the Nissan Altima, which I mentioned I was considering, now comes standard with a CVT which sounds pretty cool. But I would think the conventional automatics (even the 8-speed ones BMW is now using) still have that runaway-train feeling, and engage in gear-hunting on hills–do those things bother you coming from a long history of manual-driving?

I’m not discounting your experience, but you might not be able to blame the brake problems on BMW. They could have easily been the result of shoddy work/parts from the shop that did the brake job. And why did the rear end have to be replaced? If it was due to a collision, that’s not because the car was unreliable.

Cool. How did the price you wound up paying compare to the Edmunds True Market Value or the KBB price? And another thing I’d worry about is that they’d try to negotiate further once you got there, given that you hadn’t yet signed on the dotted line and they might feel they have you by the balls since you came all that way and wouldn’t want to leave without a car… was that a problem?