Would rap/hip hop/KL fans explain the Superbowl halftime show to me?

Cafe Society
81

You’ve spent considerably more time writing in this thread. The vid is not about the Superb Owl but about his artistry. You are not going to understand the half time show without understanding the artist. Just sayin’.

And with this you show that you do not understand sampling, which has also been around since the 70’s and used by many, many artists across all genres. However, you’re implying that Kendrick Lamar’s music is based on samples. That’s an implication without foundation about an artist you know very little about.

82

@Dinsdale maybe you should check out some hip hop documentaries. Start with “Hip Hop Evolution” on Netflix, it’s very accessible. It’s 16 episodes but it’s informative.

I also enjoyed “Ladies First” on Netflix. It focuses on women in hip hop, who are kind of an “also” in the “Hip Hop Evolution” show.

83

I am a musicologist (by training at least) and am married to one, and depending on how one defines “sampling” it goes a lot farther back than that. People have been borrowing recorded snippets of other songs for as long as the technology has made it possible, and before that they just incorporated the music into their own (sheet) music. The practice goes back centuries.

84

I am aware. Hell, Mozart sampled a starling. :wink: And “good composers borrow, great composers steal.” While there may be exceptions, I have never thought sampling others’ recordings a “high” element of any music.

Will see if something like that is available on any of the platforms we get.

My wife is out of the house right now. I’ll play some KL while working, and see how it appeals.

85

My favorite songs of his are “I” and “Humble”.

86

The point isn’t whether or not you sample. The point is whether you do something worthwhile and original with it.

87

This was really, really great, thank you for sharing it. One thing I’ll say, the message from the video guy (and I like his clever visual) is more important than the samples, so if someone feels like 45 minutes is long, you can listen to it at higher speed and lose very little.

88

Paul’s Boutique by the Beastie Boys is probably the master example of sampling. 105 samples over 14 tracks.

89

Really it is that simple. There is a huge HUGE target demographic that is being marketed to here. Successfully. Some of us aren’t in that demographic. Oh well. There’s plenty else out there gunning for our eyeballs and ear pans too.

I don’t need to get out of the way. I’m not in the way. I’m just not who matters this time. I can deal with that.

90

OK - 30 mins into DAMN, and wasn’t interested enough to listen to the next 25.

In short, it impressed me as tolerable, mostly ignorable background music. I get the message of a black person wishing to be heard, expressing his perspective and experiences, and not be judged/silenced because of his DNA. That’s fine.

I was unable to understand most of the lyrics - not sure how much effort I wish to put to perceive what depth they have. Of the words I WAS able to understand: “I don’t give a fuck, n-words, pussy, bitch, don’t that pussy taste good, get the fuck off my dick, bitch sit down, if I kill a n— it won’t be the alcohol, take a shit and blow some weed up?” And apparently Compton is supposed to be a place I’m supposed to care about. Sure, I know where Compton is and some of its history. But such repeated call outs?

Suffice it to say these sorts of lyrics do not appeal to me. Or strike me as terribly poetic. But I defer to those more expert in such things.

The vocals impress me primarily as a percussion line. My personal bias tends towards musicianship, melody, hooks…

Overall, the songs impress me as pretty repetitive. The one 22 mins in was different - but an uninteresting dirge. Then the next was back to more of the same.

The individual songs struck me as more - unfocussed than I prefer. Many songs would start w/ somewhat melodic which appeals, if only as inoffensive background music - then switched to speaking. Almost like every one was like Bohemian Rhapsody. Start with on thing, then switch to something different, then something different…

I guess I’m glad I gave it 1/2 hour. Will see if I want to give it more. Thanks for the discussion.

91

First time I have logged into the SDMB in a long while, sure, why don’t I wade into a thread on hip hop…ho boy.

Ok, so

  1. I would not have started you with Damn unless you had context. It’s not a good starting point. Good Kid m.A.A.d city is a concept album with an extremely clear narrative and accessible music. To Pimp a Butterfly is closer to Jazz with spoken word poetry attached. Both would be a better place to start than Damn because they are very different from MOST modern hip hop in that they are easily understood on their own. Which brings me to

  2. Hip hop in the last 35 years or so has essentially become an extended game of spot the reference. I mean this in a good way, but it is an EXTREMELY self referential genre and, outside of top 40 stuff, understands that the audience is generally part of the culture and doesn’t need a road map to keep up. So it doesn’t hold your hand. It expects you to know automatically what it is talking about. Maybe not every quote, maybe not every sample, but generally most of them. They aren’t easter eggs or subtext. They are text. As an example there is a song on Kendricks most recent album GNX called Reincarnated where he is essentially interpolating a Tupac song and doing it using Tupac’s signature flow, word choices, and vocal tone instead of using his own style. This is expected to be picked up on as extremely obvious, but if you aren’t in the culture you wouldn’t get it. Which takes us to

  3. I actually would not have started you listening to Kendrick at all. He does a ton of stuff that plays with expectations that won’t make any sense to you at all. What he does to rhythm and with word choice and vocal intonation will just go right past you if you don’t have context. And that’s ok. It isn’t for you and not everything has to be. Even when he is doing nothing but playing the hit (and he basically just played his most recent top hits) those hits are built on the idea that you can follow along. You mentioned that you are into punk. Great. Me too. If someone came up to you and said “Help me understand Punk rock” would you start them with gorilla biscuits live at cbgb 88? or maybe would you start with The Clash

Kendrick is the Gorilla Buscuits side of the equation. It just so happens that he is also, currently the biggest star in the world. Its easier to do with Jazz because those guys actually got super popular. So again, someone wants to get into Jazz do you throw them into Coltrane Interstellar Space? Or maybe start them with Bennie Goodman? K.Dot is Coltrane here. Do you want to do some form of Hip Hop appreciation education? There are a lot of places to start. But, again, it isn’t for you. Like Punk and Jazz, it’s a whole culture and you actually really have to get the culture to get the art.

  1. side note, apparently the sound live was mixed horribly. I didn’t watch it live, I watched it on youtube and found it entirely easy to understand what he was saying other than every 4th word being self censored. It does help if you can understand what is being said. Usually. Not always. Some stuff isn’t really meant to be understood as much as it is intended to be felt. But that isn’t common. Even then you are supposed to get the gist. But, the rhythm of the words are one of the instruments in the music. And yes, they are a percussion instrument. There is a lot of melody in hip hop but it isn’t in the vocals. The vocals are there to be a percussion instrument. The feel of the flow, the attack, the way the words rhyme, the music of the words themselves, does matter. It’s what distinguishes good rapping from other forms of poetry. Though I would say that there is a lot of common ground between Kendrick and, say, Alan Ginsburg. But some of it requires context, and some of that context is very much Kendrick speaking to a very narrow and specific audience that is probably not you. If other people like what he does that’s a happy accident.

I feel like I have lost my thesis here a bit. But, if all you are getting out of what was in DAMN is saying is him cursing and shouting out Compton you really aren’t looking that deeply into it. Part of that problem is you are legitimately missing the context of that album being a response to ALL of his critics from his previous album (so starting with DAMN is really like starting with a sequel) and also a conversation with where hip hop was at the time (which, is not where it is now. Note, he only performed one song from DAMN. His hit Humble)

I sort of want to get into lyrical analysis here but I feel like you have already written that avenue off, so I don’t know that it is worth the effort. Suffice it to say, I think you have take a super surface level approach to something that is shockingly deep. That’s fine, again, it isn’t for you. But, I do think you should recognize that the depth exists even if it isn’t interesting to you to go exploring that depth yourself.

Ok, I have absolutely lost the thread at this point. I may come back to add more later once I have regrouped.

92

How do young new listeners then enter if existing knowledge is virtually required and getting the in jokes half the fun?

I completely get that having an out group for the references is required, and that I serve that function!

93

Mostly you are raised with it. But also, it’s a lot of what hip hop media talks about. If you are listening to Joe Buddon or the Breakfast Club or Dead End Hip Hop they talk about. Also, in a very real way I think it is part of what is creating the divide between old and new rap fans which is sort of a thing in the community.

A big complaint amongst old heads is that “trap” and “mumble rap” is simplistic and lacking proper reverence for “the culture”

In a lot of ways Kendrick is a hold out. One of the last of the pre SoundCloud era rappers who still has something to say. That’s overly simplistic but close enough.

94

Thanks. A lot of interesting info. Unfortunately, I think I’m likely going to just admit to myself that it isn’t aimed at me, and that I’m not willing to put the effort into appreciating it.

I regularly encounter an artist new to me whom I can appreciate immediately. For example, in recent years, Sierra Farrell (who BTW cleaned up in the shallow “Americana” end of the Grammy pool.) I’d imagine pretty much anyone could just come upon pretty much any of her songs for the first time and understand it without needing to study about references etc. (whether they LIKED it or not.) Or my band just started learning a couple of old Bob Dylan songs I had never heard before (was not a huge Dylan fan when younger) - Ring Them Bells and One More Night. The songs are right there for you to like or dislike. No studying required. So I guess my current tastes lean heavily towards to more easily accessible music.

And playing, rather than listening/studying. My days of listening and discussing music for hours are behind me. Now, my efforts are primarily aimed at playing music at the highest level I can. I’m trying to improve my clawhammer ability, and struggling at playing upright in a community orchestra - something I’ve never done before last summer. Rap doesn’t really help me in those pursuits, which consume most of my musical bandwidth.

I like learning about things I don’t know - largely through reading, but I fear rap/hiphop doesn’t rank very high on my list.

I think I’ve asked my repeated questions largely because rap seems to have been more and more popular over the past several years. Seemingly far more than just some niche subset of music. And never having been part of the culture, it just seems quite foreign - and unappealing - to me.

I’ll try to remember this discussion and hope to avoid starting similar threads in the future.

95

The message of your post [separate from your direct response to the OP] seems to be “DAMN is dense with references familiar only to inveterate listeners of hip-hop, thus it’s not for you (unless first you do years of homework, and I’m not even sure if/then)”, and if that’s the case, I don’t buy it. I read Ulysses every couple of years knowing that I’m missing lots of internal concordances and external allusions, but learning each time, and I’m enjoying the journey even though I am absolutely certain that I will never get all of it.

Sometimes the trip itself is fun.

96

I think the point NAF is trying to make (which I was also trying to make, but more poorly) is that it’s not for the OP because of what the OP has said. Some people could listen to it and enjoy it on one level while never understanding deeper levels. The OP has said he doesn’t enjoy it, which is why it would take him a lot more effort.

97

That’s why I added the parenthetical “separate from your direct post to the OP”. I read that as a separate, more general message.

98

You and I definitely differ there. Tried to fight through it twice - with study guide. COuldn’t get past them damned oxen of the sun. Not interested in reading something I can’t understand (or have to work THAT hard at.) Very disappointed at a novel I read recently Intermezzo by Sally Rooney. I think she is a skilled writer and I was interested in the characters/situations, but I have no use for an author who eschews exclamation marks and writes 5-page long paragraphs.

99

This is why I urge you to watch a documentary (or I guess read a book - I like visuals) about the history of rap and hip hop. I don’t think you’re going to find appreciation of it as a genre through listening to one album, or a selection of songs other people think you might like.

I don’t like country music but I watched Ken Burns’ Country Music documentary over the holiday and really enjoyed it. I also watched Jazz, and while I have played jazz and listen to some jazz it’s not at the top of my list. I enjoy knowing the history and culture of both genres.

Listening to one artist’s album is not going to give you any appreciation and it’s a narrow way to decide how you feel about a genre. Even Kendrick would tell you it doesn’t define or explain anything, just one man’s artistry at one point in time.

If you watch a nicely produced, nicely summarized doc about hip hop you STILL might not like it but you will have a better understanding of it all and can have more enlightened discussions about it.

There’s a lot of stuff out there to watch but I urge you to not start with anything that focuses on one artist or one album or one movement. Hip hop is now mature and is as varied as rock, jazz and country. Like, wouldn’t it be a shame if someone’s only knowledge of rock was a Kiss album?

100

Fully agree. I think sometimes the trip itself is fun, and if you like music that sounds like hip hop, DAMN was actually written to be his most accessible album. Maybe GNX is more accessible but that’s debatable. BUT, if you don’t already listen to music that has some connection to stuff that sounds like this…its a really bad place to start because it doesn’t give you anything to grab onto.

DAMN. was written, as all of Kendrick’s stuff is for the most part, to be a part of a conversation that was happening at the time. Largely it is written as a response to criticism of his last album To Pimp a Butterfly, and if you don’t know that a ton of what he is talking about will go over your head. Without the context a song like, for example, HUMBLE will seem like it’s just your typical brag rap that talks about sex and how awesome Kendrick is (the OP specifically referenced some lyrics. If you know the context, to quote the song “there’s levels to it.” First that it’s playing off the tradition of brag raps. This is a thing and I don’t have time and you probably don’t have the desire for me to get into it. Second that its running directly counter to his established image at the time (by bad analogy, imagine if Bob Dylan in 1964 suddenly released a song that sounded like Brown Sugar. It would be weird and probably you would say “hey, why is protest song guy writing a hyper sexual song all of a sudden”) Third it’s largely in conversation with the fact that his last album made him a stadium filling superstar that “the streets” didn’t really respect. TPAB was written for black people, but was mostly embraced by white people, for reasons we can get into later if you like. So, he’s engaging in some self deprecating parody because he knows he SHOULD be humble. ALSO, he is very literally telling explicitly Drake (because this beef didn’t start in 2024) and a few others to back off, because he can do everything they can do, but they can’t do what he can do. He can make the hyper sexual, hood, club anthem a hit, but they can’t do anything like TPAB.

So that is the context for the song that literally everyone who was even halfway paying attention to pop music, not just hip hop, in 2017 knew before they even heard the song. This is before you get into the references in the song itself. It’s just the context.

Now, it’s a fucking banger. Its fun, you can dance to it, its got a great hook, it’s got a ton of quotable lines. It works even without the context. But the context is part of it IF you are looking to find out why people love it beyond it being a solid banger. Because, there are a lot of club songs out there. There is a reason why this got played at the Super Bowl.

This is something that carries through the whole album which is really Kendrick exploring his rise to super stardom and his roots as a poor kid in Compton and trying to figure out if he can still be the real him now that he is a super star. And it traces that through how Fox News reacted to his last album. How the streets reacted to his rising fame. How he personally is handling being compared to Tupac and being called the voice of a generation. And he does this all while trying to intentionally make an album that sounds exactly like every other pop rap album that was coming out in 2017, while still being uniquely him. It is a VERY good piece of art. It has a lot of depth and it is worth engaging with. It’s worth pulling the connections together.

But

And this is important.

If you don’t like it, that’s ok. It was really really really, made for a super specific group of people and if you didn’t grown up in Compton…you aren’t one of them. That isn’t true of everything Kendrick makes and it doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it. I do and I am very much not from Compton but I have been listening to hip hop since the 90s and it was also made to be enjoyable to hip hop fans. If you don’t like hip hop it’s a hard album to get into.