And there are women who have stereotypically male names that haven’t flipped. The President’s mother’s name was Stanley and Michael Learned was credited as “Miss Michael Learned” on The Walton’s to avoid confusion. There’s also Daryl Hannah and Glenn Close. And those are just the famous ones I can think of offhand with relatively common stereotypically male names - they are not common for women , but they are more common for men than a name like Blake or Cameron or Drew.
Actresses with traditionally masculine names are the best reason for NOT abandoning the term actress.
How about back in the 60’s when people were naming their kids “Moonbeam” or “Sparkle” or something.
They must have all had Michael or Elizabeth for middle names, because I don’t know a single person with a name like that now. Well, except for a couple of practitioners of woo who adopted those those names as adults, and whose parents were patent attorneys in the 1960s.
In light of a point made in the current thread on Bruce Jenner, I wonder if the people who can’t see any reason to avoid giving girl names to boys (and boy names to girls), besides sexism, are those who don’t have a strong gender identity.
I know that explains why I don’t get it.
Sometimes I wonder if our insistence on genderizing everything explains why some people have gender identity disorder in the first place.
I’ll bet it hasn’t helped.
Ummm, actually, yes. It’s pretty awful. Not because of being mistaken for a girl, or that being a girl is a bad thing. But all the teasing, bullying, and other baggage that comes with it. You learn to react early, whether fighting, swearing or bottling it up inside or some other unproductive way. Even in my 5th decade you can still push my buttons by making fun of my first name, which in 99.9% of the time is a female name in the US.
I agree with the previous poster that call it child abuse. You’ll see me on the boards jumping into every related thread to get creative if you must with your child’s middle name.
The only advantage is that when I get a call or email address to Ms. x, I know the person obviously doesn’t know me. I don’t find it amusing when in a waiting room and someone asks for Ms x. I only kinda sorta find it amusing when someone comes into the waiting room, starts to call out a name, stops, realizes only men are in the waiting room, then kinda float out is there an x here?
And you can never escape the first name middle initial routine. It’s only gotten worse with the interwebs. For example, my corporate amex card is first name middle initial.
I’m neither male nor Irish, but I’m Catholic and I would be pretty likely to stick a “Mary” as nth name on a baby if the father was OK with it. Quite traditional for my area - a list of local folks I saw yesterday included a Juan Mari and three José Maris, out of some twenty male names; those two combinations are so common that they aren’t even perceived as “two names” but as “a name made up of two”, if you call those guys Juan or José they won’t realize you’re talking to them. What I wouldn’t do is use a female first on a guy.
Note that gender confussions can also happen with names that are completely gendered. I know several Marionas whose name gets mis-corrected to Mariano.
Actually I think it’s the other way around. I am very sure that I’m a woman and don’t feel that my woman-ness has anything to do with how I look or act or talk or dress, but some women seem to feel that they can’t really be women unless they’re feminine. Men seem to be even more likely to believe that their man-ness is unstable and dependent on being masculine; it’s like if they aren’t manly enough they will somehow stop being men. I think people who are confident that that their gender identity isn’t a function of their gender conformity value gender conformity less.
But how is that not a reflection of your being bothered to be compared to a girl?
Maybe I’m not using the right term, but the people who feel like they have to prove their femininity or masculinity aren’t the kinds of people I’m thinking about. I’m thinking about the people who say “I’m a woman (or man), but it has no bearing on who I am. If I woke up tomorrow with different private parts, I’d shrug and go on with my life.”
If I woke up tomorrow morning with different private parts, I’d kill myself. I’m not especially feminine, but I really like being female.
And I really don’t care about being female- it’s what I am , I neither like it nor dislike it , but in and of itself my gender doesn’t have much affect on my life. But I’d still be upset if I woke up with different genitals tomorrow, in the same way I’d be upset if I woke up with different colored hair or eyes tomorrow.
Be careful if you do that. Years ago I was substitute teaching. I had the cutest girl in the room I was in one day. Gorgeous long hair, neatly braided. Kind of chubby pink cheeks. You know the type. So I had her line up with the other girls to use the bathroom, etc. I saw her looking at me kind of strangely, but kids are “supposed” to look at substitutes strangely! I finally double cheeked the class roster and found that I had been talking to “Doug”, who was very much a boy.
Okay, the name “Doug” should have tipped me off right away, but it didn’t. Most days for a sub teacher are confusing. But it would have been more confusing if this boy had had a name like “Alice” or some other “girl” name.
So - think of the teachers your child will encounter some day. Make it easy on them. Gender specific names, please. And while you are at it, keep the names simple. Don’t go creative on spelling or pronunciation. You may think it’s unique to have a 13 letter name for your child, but think of the struggles he will face in kindergarten when s/he is learning to print that name, especially while the student next to her/him only has to learn “Joe”!
I’m sorry, but keeping things easy for substitute teachers is not something I would give two figs about.
And making a decision based on how difficult you think the spelling is compared to “Joe”? Basing that lifelong thing on a fleeting issue like that? Sorry, no.
I learned how to spell my own long, complicated, foreign, and difficult to pronounce name years before I started school.
And yes, every time I started a new year or had a substitute teacher I would have to go through a brief period of annoyance in explaining my name. It was worth it.
But if you hadn’t assumed that long hair & pink cheeks = girl, this wouldn’t have happened. And if the bathrooms were gender-neutral, this wouldn’t have been an issue. Why is it important that a small child’s gender be instantly recognizable?
And what about people from non-European backgrounds; do you expect them to name their kids “Betty” and “James” because the average American doesn’t know the default gender for “Akio” or “Hasani”?
OK, gotcha. But I don’t think that’s the main issue here; while I do think people like that tend to be more relaxed about gender conformity, there are plenty of people with strong gender identities who are also relaxed about gender conformity.
I guess I don’t think of a desire not to be misgendered (or to have your child misgendered) as gender conformity.
This isn’t directed at anyone, in general, and hopefully it won’t inflame things, but I know biracial people who don’t look stereotypically biracial, and who feel strongly about having all of their heritage acknowledged. It’s not about racism, it’s about feeling that their heritage is an important part of who they are.
My wife is biracial, but so fair-skinned (and thin-nosed and slender-lipped) that you’d never guess it if she didn’t tell you. She could easily pass for white, if that were still a thing, but strongly identifies as black. Hell, culturally she is far blacker than I am.
In the 90s, I had a girlfirend who, though very pretty, much preferred boyish clothes to girlish garb, and being quite slender, small-boobed, and short-haired, was frequently mistaken for a teenage boy rather than a late-20s woman. This frequently enraged and sometimes hurt her. I made the mistake once of suggesting that she start wearing dresses (thus also showing off her very nice gams) to avoid the problem; that ended badly.