I’d certainly be willing to bluff if I really thought I needed a gun.
You got that list of all the folks that resisted and were shot dead yet?
I didn’t say that any were shot dead. I don’t know that any resisted. I don’t think the cops were so much concerned with house-to-house stuff as with disarming the yahoos running around on the streets, though.
For certain, there are many options that lie between “do exactly as you are told” and “engage in a gunfight with the police.”
I’ll blow up that bridge (or levee) when I come to it.
If a bunch of cops show up to my house and demand that I surrender my firearms then odds are that’s what I’d do. In a Katrina situation I’d lie about whether or not I had firearms but I certainly wouldn’t physically resist an officer who demanded to search. I’m not going to start shooting at cops even if I disagree with what they’re doing. There are better ways to voice my complaints that won’t make me dead.
Odesio
Then it doesnt matter then does it?
Back to your question.
Would I consider shooting cops trying take guns from me in my house in a Katrina situation?
Yes.
Would I actually do it. Slim chance.
Would I consider it murder if I did it or someone else did? No, at least not under certain circumstances.
And BTW I’ve only shot a gun a few times in my life, never owned one, don’t have an NRA sticker, nor subscibe to any “loony” right wing mags or their POVs for that matter.
At SOME point someone is going to use FORCE to take away your rights, and force is the ONLY thing thats going to prevent it.
Saying that to a jury will just make you sound like a raving nutcase.
I’d first ask whether this was an order, or a voluntary surrender of a firearm. Presuming I am told it was an order, I would comply, and start preparing the lawsuit. Not that I would get any money out of it, but it would be a pretty good case for establishing the Second as an individual right based on self defense.
I think I would have the same reaction to an interference with my First Amendment rights, or a demand by the police at 4 am that I allow my car to be searched. The rights are vital, but there are times that defending them immediately is just going to get you killed.
This is absolutely true. However, the OP’s question is very specific: “Would you have shot the gun confiscators when they came to your door?” Your answers to the question have been very vague, but they certainly come across as “Yes, but I don’t want to say so in public, but I’m happy to hint at it.” If that’s not what you mean, it’d behoove you either to clarify, or to stick to your assertion that there is no more to say, instead of continuing to say similar vague hints about what you’d do.
There is a related question, I think: what are the legal and ethical consequences of violently refusing an illegal order from the police? Conversely, what’s the spectrum of legal and ethical responses to such an order? For the purposes of this question, let’s stick to illegal orders that do not involve immediate injury but that might ultimately result in injury.
Daniel
Would I have shot them for coming to my door?
Not immediately.
Would I have shot them for demanding my property?
Not simply for voicing the demand.
Where we start working towards folks getting shot is when they won’t take “no” for an answer.
This is not a simple one step process, though I’m sure your side of the argument is perfectly capable of continually narrowing the circumstances until you leave no possible answer except the one you are fishing for.
My dad was a police officer. My uncle was a state trooper. I have been a deputy sheriff. I do not hate LE. I am also not overawed by badges and uniforms. No police officer should attempt to carry out an illegal order any more than should any member of the armed services.
The rest of you?
If a law was passed outlawing my firearms and allowing house-to-house confiscation, I would greet the police at the door saying “all of my firearms are in that pile to the left. I have bent the barrels and cut the receivers in half (being very careful not to obscure or damage the serial numbers) and broken the magazines - just in case one of the weapons goes ‘mysteriously missing’ from your evidence locker. The ammunition for them is in the pile to the right, you’ll notice that in each case the cartridges have been smashed - you know, just in case they were to go ‘missing’ from your evidence locker as well. The woman standing next to me is my attorney, and the person with the video camera is her assistant. Would you like some coffee? All I have is instant.”
Look out everyone, I guess I’m one of those craaaaaaaaaaaaazy SDMB gun nuts.
You don’t get to decide what’s a legal order and what isn’t, and you certainlty don’t get to murder cops because you have personally adjudcated that their orders aren’t lawful.
You;re also being awfully evasive about giving a straight answer. Would you be willing to kill the cops to stop them from taking your guns, yes or no? Spare us the hemming and hawing over preliminary steps. They are in the process of physically seizing your guns. What do you do? I have a feeling you would do exactly as you were told. You’d have to be psychotic not to.
That wasn’t really the scenario. It was a temporary order, not a permanent law. I don’t have any problem with how you say you’d handle it, though. I think the cops would appreciate it too.
Sure he does, you just don’t think he should decide this isn’t a legal order.
Well if you drink instant how can you defend yourself.
Well, the next logical step (assuming you don’t successfully bamboozle them into thinking you have no guns) would be for them to say, “That’s it, you’re under arrest.” What do you do then? More importantly, what at that point are your legal and ethical options, stipulating that they do not have just cause to arrest you?
My suspicion is that legally, you do not have the right to resist an illegal arrest by a police officer.
This isn’t continual narrowing of the circumstances: this is following the hypothetical along the most logical lines. It’s highly unlikely that the police will meet your refusal to surrender your guns with a “well played, sir!” and leave your house.
You do what you think is best if the situation ever arises. How many more times do I have to say that? I do not require you to do otherwise.
You aren’t really looking for an answer anyway, because I’ve already given you that. What you obviously want is for me to phrase something in such a way that you can point and squeal “Scumpup wants to murder cops!” and feel all morally superior about yourself.
I’ve already told you:
- I will obey all legal orders.
- Simply showing up at my door isn’t a reason for shooting.
- Simply demanding what is mine isn’t a reason for shooting.
- There are many options between doing exactly what one is told and engaging in gun battles; any thinking person knows that
- Not all killing is murder.
That is all the answer you are going to get. If it isn’t enough, remember what the kitty said.
You fail to understand the psychology of vermin. Shoot one, and watch the others soil themselves and run.
Then we are back to where lines are drawn. Do you draw any at all on what illegal orders you will follow?
Eh. Sounds like a statement issued under code-CYAN (Cover Your Ass Now) protocols.