I’ve come up with various hells over the years.
In one, all of the coffee is decaf.
In another, everything is fat and sugar free.
Another, the only thing on TV are reruns of BJ and the Bear.
Riches? In Heaven? Why would that be useful?
Gotta be some. Otherwise the hardcore libertarians and the prosperity gospel crowd start thinking they’re in some kind of hell.
There’s only one hell. You get 1,000 channels of cable tv but every show is the cliffhanger, never the part 2.
Yeah, but once you get used to it, they probably change it to some other type of torture, just to keep you on your toes.
Or maybe Hell is suffering from eternal boredom?
Later, more accurate, measurements show that the percentage on God’s side was 66.6%
Odd how that worked out…
When particularly religious people (or folks that argue from the alleged point of view of a believer) start or participate in a thread, it’s usually a little depressing, because they generally proceed from a position of taking the writings of the Bible at face value, and always replay the same ideas. Worse are the atheist naysayers, who join in to disparage religion and scriptures by claiming that the details of the Bible, and essentially the total content of these scriptures, are a web of fables … made up by control-freak acolytes for the purpose of manipulating the masses. There’re never any new ideas because it’s always the same conversation.
Remember the movie “The 13th Warrior”? If you’ve read “Beowulf”, you know that poem is a wordy tale of a musclebound braggart, Beowulf, sort of a Nordic Heracles, who fights monsters as a hobby. As far as I’m concerned, the actual story is an exciting adventure, but the writing style plods along with overdoses of metaphor and allusions that must have made more sense to an 8th century audience. It’s hard to read, unless you go for that sort of ancient style.
“The 13th Warrior”, John McTiernan’s spiffy version of Michael Crichton’s “Eaters of the Dead”, re-imagines the tale of Beowulf as “Viking vs Neanderthal”, and the idea that a clash of tribes could have become a mythical tale of Man vs Monster kind of encapsulates my interpretation of Bible scriptures. On the one hand, we have events in the history of an ancient tribe, and on the other, the oral traditions, finally written into a complex and lengthy story. Does that story tell the real history of those ancient people, or is it mired in the cultural baggage of the tale-tellers, writers and editors who infused their own agenda into the telling of events that are ultimately diluted and obscured?
This is exactly how I felt reading this thread.
I’m not sure having their own agenda is even a factor. Have you ever played “The Secret Game” as a child in grade school? That’s where all the children sit in a circle and the teacher tells one kid a secret. That secret gets passed on from child to child till eventually it makes its way back to the teacher. Except, the thing is, the secret told to the teacher bares little resemblance to the original.
I’m pretty sure the same thing had to have happened with our ancestors from long ago.
I respectfully disagree with your simplistic analysis, no offense intended.
Matthew 19:21
“Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.””
Because there’s never any new concepts to talk about. Religion is by nature intellectually sterile and can provide nothing new; it’s not like any gods are going to actually show up or even talk. As for atheism, religion is wrong now for the same reasons it’s always been wrong, so what new things are there to say?
As to the OP, there just isn’t enough information to say.
In contrast, go back to 1775: would I be an American revolutionary, or a Loyalist? That’s actually fairly easy to answer: I’d be a loyalist.
Go back to 1861: Union or Confederate? Easy: Union all the way.
But Satan’s rebellion? It must have had some good arguments behind it, or else you wouldn’t have had 1/3 of the Angels sign on. Did they know the cause was hopeless? Did they know they would be sent to Hell forever? Did they take up arms anyway, even knowing that? That’s dedication!
Or were they lied to and beguiled and tricked? If so, how responsible are they for decisions they made without adequate knowledge?
And…why did God let it get so badly out of hand? Why not show up, early, and either negotiate in good faith – or just issue a Divine Decree. “Stop all this nonsense and get back to work!” You know, backed up with Omnipotence.
There simply isn’t enough information for us to work with here. The story is woefully incomplete.
Most of the truly religious folks I know look at “Religion” as a process similar to A.A. (Alcoholics Anonymous), a system of support and fellowship that solves problems ( sinfulness?) and promotes a certain code of behavior based on the organized beliefs of ancients. Most of the Atheists I know seem to be disappointed that there is no magic super hero with sci-fi powers (a Marvel Comics version of God), and since their childhood mythology doesn’t hold up to scientific scrutiny (they were lied to!), they resent the deluded believers and want to blame them, and their belief systems, for the past deeds of megalomaniacs who used religions to justify events like the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, and any other anti-social, warlike or otherwise negative historical incidents.
Both extremes are inane points of view. An ancient belief system may contain gems of wisdom, but the details and minutiae of such a set of myths and parables won’t address every element of modern life, and can’t substitute for rational thought and real altruism. People are flawed … greedy, nationalistic, and violent. They will use other excuses beside Religion to oppress one another … Nationalism, Communism, Patriotism, Libertarianism even. Religion is just one way clever, manipulative tyrants brainwash the hoi polloi. It’s nothing to do with the tenets of the belief system or the origins of the superstition. It’s all about the Powerful who would control the masses. Blaming a set of Religious beliefs for the wrongdoing of evil men and their weak minded minions … same as burning books because the ideas in them may influence the Proletariat to anti-authoritarian thoughts. They’re just ideas.
Why should i have to worship one or the other? Why can’t I worship neither or both?
Why should I worship a god who allegedly created the universe but allegedly created me as too stupid to do the same and see the good in a world drenched in blood?
Satan’s in the same boat. But I wouldn’t worship Satan, either, for the same reason — God created Satan too stupid to see two moves ahead and lacking any logic as to what good it would do for me to worship him.
God should be banned from this board for being a jerk.
If you’re saying god is just metaphor and the bible shouldn’t be taken literally, I think a lot less Atheist would have a problem with religion.
I mean, heck, I’m not aware of too many Atheists who take issue with Aesop’s fables. And that’s pretty much teaching a lot of the same stuff you see in the bible. Nobody goes to war over what’s in the bible because everyone agrees they’re just fictional stories. The bible on the other hand…
If Atheist takes issue with Christians, it’s because most Christian’s DO believe in the bible in its literal sense,.
Correction:
A convenient claim, given that it lets religion off the hook for any misdeeds committed in its name whatsoever. Somehow religion and only religion is the one sort of belief system that is never to blame when people commit the evil deeds it calls for.
Well all of the other angels would be worshipping God (except the rebels) - you’d stand out if you refused to worship God.
Angels are like his workers - they aren’t creator gods.
Apparently Satan rebelled before there was blood and cruelty in the world.
Ok I see well I guess you could rebel and then not worship Satan.
Well Satan is called a deceiver… maybe it was like the Garden of Eden where the talking snake tricked Eve. Eve knew the consequences but the snake said she wouldn’t die, etc.
“God made tireless efforts to persuade Lucifer to repent and return to God. Lucifer almost relented, but he would not give up his pride and humble himself”
But in this thread God is the bad guy…
I said “Say the worst things you’ve heard about God are true and the best things you’ve heard about Satan are true”… you can fill in the details. Also say you knew the punishment would be eternal torment.