Would you kill your child if God commanded it?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Meatros *
**Wait a minute-if it was wrong, then why did God grant him victory? Why didn’t God make a squirrel walk through Jepthah’s tent first, or why didn’t God some how tell Jepthah not to kill his daughter?

My understanding of Judges Chapter 11 might be flawed, but to me it seems as though God is just fulfilling his part of the bargain. It’s not like Jepthah instantly killed her either, he sent her away to lament about her virginity for two months.

I don’t know, it just seems as though in this particular incident, God either wanted a human sacrafice or didn’t mind one in his name. Neither of which is very good.
**

Well, then why not take that argument to it’s ultimate conclusion: Why didn’t God simply obviate the need for the battle to begin with and not let foreigners conquer the Jews to begin with? Or, to take the tack differently, obviously God wanted the slaughter of the Holocaust because He didn’t prevent it.

In the end, we have free will to do good or evil; to act wise or foolishly. That includes me, that includes you; it even included Abraham, Pharroh and Jephtah. He made a rash vow and then he compounded his error by not following normative Jewish law on the matter. God simply allowed him to proceed because that’s what God does: He allows us to excersice our free will.

Zev Steinhardt

[Meatros]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
**Well, then why not take that argument to it’s ultimate conclusion: Why didn’t God simply obviate the need for the battle to begin with and not let foreigners conquer the Jews to begin with? Or, to take the tack differently, obviously God wanted the slaughter of the Holocaust because He didn’t prevent it.

In the end, we have free will to do good or evil; to act wise or foolishly. That includes me, that includes you; it even included Abraham, Pharroh and Jephtah. He made a rash vow and then he compounded his error by not following normative Jewish law on the matter. God simply allowed him to proceed because that’s what God does: He allows us to excersice our free will.

Zev Steinhardt **

Fair enough, but it’s hard for me to think that instead of telling Jepthah not to make such utterances or punishing him personally, that God would punish an innocent. I can’t recall, but was Jepthah punished later for killing his daughter? It just seems to me to be an evil act or a condoning act.

I keep wanting to put my two cents in, as to what I personally believe would have been a good act by God. This is of course arrogant on my part, because if this event did indeed happen in history I would not have all the facts to it.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

God accepted the sacrifice. He participated in the quid pro quo. God is on the hook in that story. he killed people in return for a virgin.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic *
**God accepted the sacrifice. He participated in the quid pro quo. God is on the hook in that story. he killed people in return for a virgin. **

Please cite for me the verse where God accepts the sacrifice (as it does in Genesis 4:4 or Genesis 8:21, or any other similar language).

Zev Steinhardt

[county]

Pretty much have to do what God commands.

Now the rovin’ gambler he was very bored
He was tryin’ to create a next world war
He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor
He said I never engaged in this kind of thing before
But yes I think it can be very easily done
We’ll just put some bleachers out in the sun
And have it on Highway 61.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
**Please cite for me the verse where God accepts the sacrifice (as it does in Genesis 4:4 or Genesis 8:21, or any other similar language).

Zev Steinhardt **

whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD 's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

God accepted the deal by giving Jephthah what he asked for…and since he was God he knew that Jephthah’s daughter would come out of that door even if Jephthah didn’t know it.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic *
**God accepted the deal by giving Jephthah what he asked for…and since he was God he knew that Jephthah’s daughter would come out of that door even if Jephthah didn’t know it. **

Have you considered the possibilty that Jepthah was supposed to win the battle anyway? After all, if I say “God, if when I flip this coin it comes up heads I’m going to give you my Coca-Cola” doesn’t mean that if it comes up heads that God wants my Coke.

Zev Steinhardt

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

But the passage clearly says that “the LORD” delivered the Ammonites into Jephtha’s hands. It was God’s decision not happenstance. In any case, God did nothing to dissuade Jephthah from his actions. Jephthah clearly believed that God had accepted his deal and that the sacrifice was required. His daughter believed it too.

When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”
36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD . Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

The passage does not indicate in any way that the sacrifice was contrary to God’s will. It gives just the opposite impression. in fact. The story also does not say anything about Jephthah being punished for his actions. It actually seems to approve of the sacrifice by mentiong the Israelite custom of honoring his daughter.

I don’t know the Talmud commentary on this but the story as written in the Tanach gives a very strong impression that there was a quid pro quo. A sacrifice in return for a miltary victory.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic *
**But the passage clearly says that “the LORD” delivered the Ammonites into Jephtha’s hands. It was God’s decision not happenstance.

**

I’m not arguing against that. Only that God may very well have been planning to have Jepthah win the battle anyway.

**
In any case, God did nothing to dissuade Jephthah from his actions. Jephthah clearly believed that God had accepted his deal and that the sacrifice was required. His daughter believed it too.

**

God allowed the Holocaust to happen too. Are you suggesting that we then emulate the Nazis or that God wants it to happen again?

**
The passage does not indicate in any way that the sacrifice was contrary to God’s will. It gives just the opposite impression. in fact. The story also does not say anything about Jephthah being punished for his actions. It actually seems to approve of the sacrifice by mentiong the Israelite custom of honoring his daughter.

**

On the contrary, I read it as a memorial for someone who died (or was cloistered) needlessly. Sort of the way we commemorate certain events every year to this day

**
I don’t know the Talmud commentary on this but the story as written in the Tanach gives a very strong impression that there was a quid pro quo. A sacrifice in return for a miltary victory. **

Well, that’s part of the reason that we (Orthodox Jews) rarely (if ever) read it without commentary.

Zev Steinhardt

[davidw]

I’d reply with Jeremiah 7:31, and ask why the change of heart:

They have built the pagan shrines of Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom, where they sacrifice their little sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

[John_Mace]

We can let Zev off the hook on this point, but the Christian posters here who claim that God would not ask for a human sacrifice seem to to be forgetting the most fundamental tenet of Christianity: That God sacrificed His Son to save Mankind. I’m not buying the argument that the Abraham incident ended the need for sacrifice, at least not in the Christian tradition. There is nothing allegorical about the death and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. At least not in any mainstream Christian religion.

So once again, Christian Dopers better get that alter ready in the backyard, sharpen the knife, and tell the kid he won’t be making to soccer practice today. But then again, maybe God will do what he did to Abraham and let you off the hook at the last minute.

I’m still wondering how the rest of the Bible would’ve played out if Abraham had had as little faith as most the folks posting to this thread have.

[SimonMoon5]

*Originally posted by Urban Ranger *
**How could you tell it’s YHWH that told you to kill your child? **

Yeah, what if it’s really Zeus or one of his pals in disguise?

[Flash-57]

> Would you be willing to sacrifice your son if God commanded you to?

Is this the same God that had all of Job’s family and possessions destroyed just to settle a little disagreement with Satan?

I think the more interesting question is whether the Pope would support a Catholic who claimed that God told him to sacrifice his family to test his faith.

[davidw]

*Originally posted by John Mace *
**We can let Zev off the hook on this point, but the Christian posters here who claim that God would not ask for a human sacrifice seem to to be forgetting the most fundamental tenet of Christianity: That God sacrificed His Son to save Mankind. **

Considering that God sacrificed His Son to save mankind, why would it be necessary for me to sacrifice my son? I’m already saved by Christ’s blood.

[Flash-57]

> I’m postulating that whoever the request is being made of is absoultely,
> 100% sure that it is God who is making the request.

Well, that’s gives everyone a huge loophole, since a person could never be 100% sure that God is the one giving the orders.

What would a being have to say or do to you to convince you 100% that he is the one true God and that you should start slaughtering your family right away?

Wouldn’t there always be a 1-5% chance that you were dreaming it all?

[John_Mace]

*Originally posted by OpalCat *
**I’d submit that that is a stupid conclusion to draw. Several people have basically said that they’d give up their immortal soul/afterlife/whatever to save their child. That doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in it, it just means that their children are their priority.
I gotta say I agree. Also, any God that would command such a thing is clearly such a prick that I could never follow him. **

Are you calling Abraham stupid? It’s entirely possible that your kid will also be sentenced to eternal damnation if this sacrafice isn’t carried out. God (and remember that the OP is stating that you are absolutely certain this is the God) most likely isn’t asking this on a whim.

So, one might argue that the correct thing to do is to ask God what the consequences are if said act is not completed. Now, that question in and of itself might be considered a denial of faith, but it’s probably just as likely that God would not answer in any specific way. God can be like that. At any rate, it is certainly reasonable to assume that the kid, if sacraficed, will go directly to heaven. And isn’t that the purpose of this life on earth anyway?

No matter how I look at it, the kid has got to go.

[mystycalchyk]

Oy, I know I’m going to regret coming out of lurkdom for this, but what the hey…

If we are using Abraham as the example here, …oh wait, I suppose I must preface this with…everything I say is my own opinion and my own interperetation.

ahem

OK. Using Abrahams as the example here. Yes God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son, but He did not do it and then simply ‘change His mind’. HE KEW that Abraham would willingly obey the command, He simply wanted Abraham to know that he would. God had no intention of going through with the death of Abrahams son from the get go. He simply wanted Abraham to know that Abraham was truly willing to do anything commanded of him.

Oh and as far as “how would one know it was God and not someone ese pretending to be God” well, thats a valid point. But were it any other being BUT God all one would have to do, would be to tell it to leave, in Jesus name, and it would not be able to stay. God wants us (who beleive ) to know that we know that we know that we’re talking to Him. and vice verce.
So given that, IF I knew without the shadow of a doubt that God truly had asked me to do that I would BUT it’s truly moot. For in the time of Abraham it was the blood of sacrifces that covered our ‘sins’, however since Jesus’ crucifixion was the ultimate sacrifice we are no longer required to offer up blood sacrifices to God. He took care of that for us. So truly, God would never ask a person to do that, now.

prepares to be flamed

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

But were it any other being BUT God all one would have to do, would be to tell it to leave, in Jesus name, and it would not be able to stay.

Cite?

[mystycalchyk]

*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic *
**Cite? **

heres the first I came across…and again, I prefaced my post by saying these are my OWN personal revaltions and beleifs, I do not expect any of you to agree with me
Matthew 17:14-21
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
next:

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

more?
Mark 11: 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

and:

Mark 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils
oh and also, this also must be shown to rebuke the thought that those acts were not for ‘normal average jos schmoes’

John 14:12-14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Do I need to keep looking?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

I think that’s a specious interpretation of scripture but even if we allow for it, how do you know that the Bible is correct? How do you know that Christianity is correct?

The question wa how can you be sure that it’s really God who’s speaking to you. Quoting scripture does not provide empirical certainty. You still wouldn’t know that it was really God, you would believe it based on an a priori faith that yelling “Jesus” at an imposter God will make it go away. You no way of knowing whether your assumptions about the Bible are true to begin with.

Since you don’t know if the Bible is right, then you can’t know that your little trick will work…and that means you can’t ever know if it’s really God or not.