Being in Hell would be worth it, if only to see John Edwards and Jimmy Swaggert.
(Brimstone? You’re soaking in it.)
Remember people, your soul is your personality, memories, etc. It’s not your peripheral nervous system.
Heh. . .
(In hell)
Me: Er, why are you covering me in red-hot ants? My spine is rotting back on earth, Mr. Moloch. I can’t feel a damn thing.
If God is real, and hell is real, and not following God results in going to hell, then I cannot follow God just on general principle. If God would actually send people to a place of eternal torment just for not worshipping him, then He is the most evil being I can imagine. The classic description of the Christian God is the most despicable being I have ever heard of because he has the power to help everyone and instead chooses to toy with them instead. Cats toy with mice because it is fun and they do not have any sense of morality, but God is supposed to be an example to define our morality and yet serial sex murders are the only people I know that seem to really follow God’s example.
I refuse to worship any being that would consign me or anyone else to eternal torment for any reason whatsoever.
As a matter of fact, I would consider any being capable of causing any other being to suffer horribly for eternity to be evil. Since ‘God’ is supposed to be the good one and ‘Satan’ is supposed to be the evil one, this ‘God’ with the eternal torment/ burning hell cannot actually be ‘God’ - he/she/it must be ‘Satan’ in disguise. Hmm, perhaps the Bible is a test - if you can read about all of the horrible, cruel things attributed to the ‘God’ described there and still worship ‘Him’ and claim he is ‘good’, then you ‘fail’ because you have evidence of evil staring you in the face and still choose to worship the being that perpetrated those evil acts.
Are you ‘hell-believers’ sure you’re worshipping the right guy?
Well, drat you, Procacious - all I did was go start a load of laundry and you snuck in ahead of me!
I’ll forgive you, though, because I like the way you think 
If the OT-style christian god were to be proven true, I’d probably want to join with the demons. They might be close to the same level of evil, but they seem less so (God comits genocide on an unparalleled scale, and commands others to commit genocide, murder, and numberous other evil acts, but the demons only try to convince someone into murder or robbery or even just sex… And they’re worse?). The lesser of two evils, and all that.
Plus they just seem like they’d be more fun to be around.
Of course, there are all sorts of other gods out there, some would be worth following, some wouldn’t. But I doubt the OP was really considering, say, Anubis and his lot being proven to exist, or the like.
I simply must bring up the fact that Hell undoubtably has a better band…
If there was a god, then I would have to judge whether or not I would follow her on a case by case basis. Frankly, “follow me or go to hell” is a huge point against her - I don’t respond well to intimidation. I’m not saying I would automatically decide not to follow such a god. For example if the commands for following her were ‘don’t kill people’ then sure, no problem. However, a god that makes people guess as to whether she exists and if they guess wrong then they go to hell? No thank you. Whether or not I agreed with her commandments I would probably still choose hell in preference. Well, I say that now. If it came to it I would probably chicken out and follow said deity, but only if it didn’t confllict with my morality.
FTR, I believe that if there is a god then she is a fairly liberal ‘person’, in which case I wouldn’t be terribly likely to refuse to follow her. Of course, a god that liberal probably wouldn’t have an eternal hell torment. At most, purgatory would be more like it.
(And yes. God is female if she exists.)
Rug Burn writes in the OP: "If God was proven to exist to me, and I thought that the after-life would be infinitely better for me by following him…I’d be first in line. God could even be evil and I’d still choose him over an existance in hell if I thought I wouldn’t be punished or tortured as in hell. I think it just comes down to basic self-preservation."
(Underlining mine – DG)
What it seems to come down to for you, RB, is that finally, might makes right. While you, presumably, would not set fire to anyone, nor cause them to writhe in agony yourself even for a short time, you would have no trouble accepting a being who not only could, but would do that to billions of lesser (read “less powerful”) beings for all time to come. Somehow you have absorbed “god is love” (1 JN 4:16) and missed the abundant evidence in the Old Testament that he is anything but.
This god that you want to follow commanded parents to take rebellious children to the elders and have them stoned to death (Deut. 21:18). To satisfy a bet with an underling he allowed the family of his servant Job to be murdered (Book of Job). He sent two bears to tear to pieces 42 little children for mocking Elisha’s bald head (2Ki. 2:23). To test his loyalty, god told Abraham to murder his own son (Gen. 22). He commanded that all the people of Midian be murdered, except virgin females – guess why they were spared (Num. 31), specifically telling them to murder all the male children. CHILDREN! He was so vicious that when his little human toys behaved in a manner consistant with the “human nature” with which he had created them, and worse, didn’t satisfy his cosmic ego by constant worship, he destroyed all of them in a flood, saving only eight humans and a few thousand samples of other life (Gen. 6)
“But,” you may say, “that’s all in the Old Testament. God became better disposed toward his creation in the New Testament.” Did he, indeed? In the new testament he proclaimed hell, the ultimate cruelty.
So, you find it difficult to believe that there are people who would rather accept punishment they could only avoid by becoming accomplices of this monster? They are better than he is, even if they are weaker. Might does not make right, my friend. Some of us would rather be right.
“Would you really choose an eternity in Hell rather than follow God?”
I don’t know what “follow” means. Do you mean “worship?”
This is one part of religion that I’ve never understood: Why does God need to be worshipped? Is it some kind of a psychological problem that He has where He needs to be told constantly by a few billion inconsequential beings what a great guy He is? What for? Why does He need anything from me?
And, looking at the Bible, with the capriciousness shown by God in the Book of Job, for example, would heaven be any better than hell? It doesn’t seem like it is a sure thing.
Especially with MrO sittin’ in on fretless bass.
Femme alert.
That’s a really good point. Heaven, from what I’ve heard described, seems like a nice place for God, but less than fun for the rest of us. Sure, he’d enjoy having however many people make the cut singing hymns to him, but how much fun is that gonna be after a couple of millennia?
A paradise designed by a psychotic egomaniac… I think I’ll pass on that one.
cookeze: I’ve generally been interpreting ‘follow’ as 'obey god’s commandments and acknowledge her supremacy. I hadn’t really thought about actual worship being involved. I too don’t understand the
Beastal: Actually, I’m a guy. It’s a semi-private joke - I consider the idea of assigning a gender to a deity somewhat silly to say the least, and in particular the sheer number of people who automatically say ‘he/him’ when referring to god. Hence my default pronoun for god is female. It doesn’t reflect my actual beliefs.
Anyway, how do you know I’m not an agnostic having originally come from some goddess based religion, and thus naturally identify deities as female (I’m not, but that’s irrelevant. You didn’t know that, did you?).
I’d say slightly more fun than being tortured for a couple of millennia.
Well, it seems to me the thing to be is one of Satan’s minions. You know, the folks who get to dump people into boiling oil, poke them with pitchforks, tease them mercilessly by pointing out their fashion faux pas? Where do I sign up for that job?
. . . Oh, who am I kidding? I know damn well (ha!) that Madonna, Carrot Top and Dick Cheney will be first in line with their resumes . . .
Suppose there is a Supreme Creator. It is completely inconceivable to me that this Creator acts the same way YHWH did in the OT.
BTW, why does YHWH like the smell of burnt meat?
quote:
Originally posted by MrVisible
Sure, he’d enjoy having however many people make the cut singing hymns to him, but how much fun is that gonna be after a couple of millennia?
Originally posted by Beastal
I’d say slightly more fun than being tortured for a couple of millennia.
Both are good points. Heaven is looking less attractive the more I read. I always imagined Heaven would be like that Robin Williams movie…God basically setting you free to do your own thing in a world or existance that you create for yourself. Now I know I’m headed for hell; I can’t carry a tune to save my soul (hehe).
Do you still get free will in heaven, or do you have to check that at the door? How about sin? Can you still have thoughts of bodily pleasures? There must be more to it than an eternal ride on a white elevator.
um…
the folks I’ve met who where most certain that they were going to Heaven were the kind of people with whom I would not wish to sepend an afternoon…
an eternity with such people would be Hell.
(file under: everything’s relative)
Hmmm…now, that opens up possibilities. Suppose we all “go to the same place” – but for those who love God, it’s Heaven, and for those who don’t, it’s Hell.
In all seriousness, my impression of Heaven is not the cartoon stereotype of sitting on clouds in robes with wings and halos playing harps and singing psalms to the Almighty. (My church chants a psalm every Sunday; it’s probably the least meaningful and moving part of the service to me.)
Rather, it’s being intimately close to the Godhead Who loves each of us and having one’s dreams fulfilled – but in such a way that they never get cloying; there’s always something new, more to learn, more to do.
Hell, on the other hand, is not so much a permanent place of suffering, kind of the ultimate in bad penology, but rather the condition one ends up in when exceedingly bad choices have eliminated every portion of your will and what remains of you is merely the burned-out ashes of what was a human spirit. To aid in this analogy, consider the changes and limitations on a given person’s personality as he or she becomes a true addict to narcotics. Eventually choices become limited and nearly nonexistent, happiness is replaced by craving interspersed with moments of effective unconsciousness… Take that to the ultimate and you’ve got my concept of hell.
And God doesn’t send you there – you send yourself there by the choices you make in your life (and I’m not talking accepting Jesus here) – when what is left of you cannot be saved, Gehenna is the repository for the wastes of what was once you.