Ever read Sartre’s No Exit? You just summed it up very well.
Oh, yeah, MrO–you just know a good bass line ain’t allowed in Heaven!
Squish said:
If you believe in forever, then life is just a one-night stand;
If there’s a rock and roll heaven, you know they’ve got…
::: ducks and runs :::
in my opinion, i do believe in God…so obviously…i’d follow him. though i’d like to point out some points the Bible does say. God is good, satan is evil. all the temptation and horrible things we go through are because of our decisions to give into satan…not because of our lack of belief in God. and i think though God could wipe out satan like that snaps he chooses not to. Think about it…what kind of heaven would it be if serial killers, murderers and people who hurt other people all got to go? might as well have somewhere to put them
if life is just a one-night stand, how come Christians stick around?
why not go directly to one’s eternal reward?
:::chases after Polycarp with a Stratocaster:::
That’s if you choose to take the bible at face value, also “evil” and “good” are human moral judgements. There is no universal scale of “good” or “evil” but there is lots of grey in the world. What we perceive as good in this society might be defined as evil in another. Things are much more philosophically complex than that and when you break things down into a moral simplistic black and white then it is flawed. Nothing is absolute in this world, nothing at all.
As far as the whole Satan and God argument goes, I believe in neither and I don’t believe in the bible either. My reasoning is it’s mighty arrogant to assume your religion is the “true” way when culturally it’s not mine. I am ethnic asian and obviously Jesus christ or mohammed or whatever other fictionalized prophet never saw fit to visit my ancestors or bestow us with any kind of “biblical” purpose. Why should I believe in him then? As far as i’m concerned Christianity and Judeo-Christian beliefs are culturally middle eastern/western in origin. It has nothing at all to do with the majority of Asia’s beliefs. Plus your god sounds like a racist egomaniac who wants to oppress people.
Ack! I missed this:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aLonelySunflower *
**in my opinion, i do believe in God…so obviously…i’d follow him. though i’d like to point out some points the Bible does say. God is good, satan is evil. all the temptation and horrible things we go through are because of our decisions to give into satan… **/QUOTE]
Satan works for God. He acts on God’s orders. So if he deceives, lies, leads people into temptation, he is doing the will of God.
Now, now, Squish. . . no need to do violence to a Strat. Those things are classics. (And Poly is okay, too, I think.)
That’s a very interesting way of thinking about it all, and it’s not so far off from what I used to believe when I thought there was an afterlife myself. But if you think about it, aren’t both those scenarios available right here, right now, should you just reach for them? If Heaven is like that (which makes more sense as a reward than some cartoony cliche of course), can’t you already make this into Heaven? And don’t many people make life into that Hell as well? Having a finite life means there IS always something new to learn, to enjoy, to experience, because you’ll never be able to reach it all. Lacking Divine wisdom means there’s still frontiers. Lacking invincibility means you can still feel the hypnotic elixir of the mysterious and unnerving. And if Heaven is a place that fulfills our dreams, then that deprives us of the beautiful piece of human nature that knows how to strive to do that itself and learn every step of the way, until some day the dream takes a shape that never could have been envisioned in a moment not fought for. And finally, isn’t how close you are to the Godhead one of the most powerful choices you are empowered to make on your own already?
I don’t know if there’s a Heaven, but I’d call this world pretty damn limitless to those who make it so. Maybe you can’t, say, fly, or live amongst man eating tigers and poop launching hippos safely, or live free of suffering or strife, but you can push the boundries of this life from the day you’re born till the day you pass into wherever your final dream takes you.
I am of the opinion that, even if God exists, the Hell as is often described (a place of eternal torture, ruled by Satan, etc.) does not. It’s more Dante’s version than a Biblical one.
Satan cannot be the ruler of Hell; God would have had to create this dimension / plane of punishment for him, since Satan is but a former angel, not a god himself (I’ll grant God the sole power of creation here). Why would God create an entire dimension for what is allegedly His greatest enemy, yet not build one for, say, His Right-Hand Angel (Michael? Gabriel? Whomever.)?
At best, if we go with Revelations (and take it literally), there might be the whole Lake of Fire bit, wherein Satan and everyone who sided with him gets tossed during the Big Finale.
But what happens prior? From what I understand, the whole soul-sorting bit doesn’t happen until Armageddon; until then, everyone pretty much just lies in the earth, haunting the living or whatever they’re supposed to do, I guess.
But then, that brings up the whole point of Armageddon in the first place. If God is omnipotent, then He could just decide, “Enough.” Snap His fingers, get rid of Satan and his minions, and not have to fight that battle at all. No need for all the pomp and circumstance. So, let’s just pretend that Revelations is a metaphor or allegory or whatever, and that God is omnipotent, so decides to forego all that nonsense.
When the End comes, I cannot fathom God, or anyone else for that matter, looking at my life and deciding that I am a follower of Satan, and ought to be tossed into the aformentioned (possibly metaphorical) Lake of Fire with the rest of his minions. If God truly is so spiteful, then toss away, I say.
Just a quick word of welcome to two newbies, aLonelySunflower and Sullus, with one and three posts respectively. Hope you find the climate here enjoyable, even though it gets hot from time to time (especially in the Pit…and I don’t mean Dante’s Inferno!).
This premise behind this whole argument is actually pretty silly. Why argue about accepting Hell if the existance of God can’t be proven?
If a being came up to me claiming to be God, then I would more likely distrust my senses than believe the being. There are so many ways that senses could be masked, and simply because someone or something displays the same qualities as God does not mean that he/she/it is really God. Maybe it is a supernatural being, but just an imposter. Or maye this God is a bald-faced liar?
I dunno. That’s why I avoid these sorts of binary choices. Give me Choice D.
Originally posted by MrVisible
Sure, he’d enjoy having however many people make the cut singing hymns to him, but how much fun is that gonna be after a couple of millennia?
I’d say slightly more fun than being tortured for a couple of millennia.
You guys have never stood next to me in choir…listening to me sing for a millennia would be torture. The bucket I carry a tune in has a great big hole in it.
I do make up for being off key by my boundless enthusiam - I’m really loud and expressive. I figure that helps.
(Why do I suddenly suspect that it doesn’t matter what I believe or how I live my life - I’m destined for hell because I’m going to fail the singing audition!)
Awwww…c’mon, haven’t you ever seen that movie Defending Your Life? :rolleyes:
You’re just rolling your eyes because you only use three percent of your brain.
Wow! A third newbie on thjis thread. Welcome to the SDMB, Seint Fnordius! Hope you have a good experience here.
Squish, Satan does Not work for God.
Where do you get this idea?
Satan can do bad stuff, but only what God allows, God doesn’t want him to do any!
He (satan) can do nothign but lie anyway. His first lie was telling Eve humans can become gods.
Thats a lie from satan.
So, why does God let him do “bad stuff” at all? Why does God allow him to exist, if he’s going around doing “bad stuff”?
If I have a dog that likes to bite people, it’s my responsibility if someone gets bitten. I can stop the dog from biting people, with proper care and attention, and a big fence; I can put the dog down if I think that despite these precautions, he might get out and bite someone. If I “allow” my dog to bite someone, that’s my fault.
So a quick poll - Allah has been proven to be the “one true God”, and he has some nasty things in store for you when you leave this life if you don’t follow his will. Are you going to stone adulterous women to death? Fly planes into the WTC? I there any atrocity you will not commit against your fellow human beings in order to avoid eternal damnation? Because if there isn’t, then I think I’d prefer the company of those who’ll be sharing that damnation with me than the company of those who’ll be occupying heaven because they followed the “divine dictator’s” will.
Damn you, reprise! You stole my point!
But you did it with Allah, so I’ll do it with YhWh.
It’s one thing to talk about serving an evil God in principle. But let’s talk specifics.
YHWH exists, we’ll assume. He leans down from heaven, leers at you, and says, “If you want to prove you’re true to me, you’ll strangle your mother to death with your bare hands. I’m gonna send her to Hell for eternal torment, because she refused to sacrifice you to me. It just amuses me to make you kill her. Do it!”
Do you do it?
Abraham almost did: he was gonna kill his son just because God told him to. Lot did it: he let his daughters be gangraped, because he thought God would want him to.
I don’t think I’d do it.
And I might burn in hell, and I might spend every second of the next eternity wishing that I’d strangled my mother with my bare hands, because then I wouldn’t be burning. Pain can lead to madness.
But I wouldn’t do it. And if there were more people who wouldn’t do it, we might live in a frickin utopia.
Daniel