Would You Sign A Prenuptial Agreement?

In My Humble Opinion
22

No, if you really love and trust someone you wouldn’t ask them to SIGN a pre-nup. I suspect pre-nups are for people who aren’t 100% sure about the person they are marrying. In which case, I would advise them to not enter into the marriage in the first place.

And that is precisely why I went to college for 4 years and got a degree. I married someone who was my equal, not my father.

Which is why I’m not in favor of pre-nups.

They should have spent more time getting to know the character of the person they were MARRYING.

Because more times than not it’s the mom who gets the kids. Alimony is pretty much a thing of the past in my state.

Gosh, most single moms I know are living paycheck to paycheck while trying to juggle work and their kids. What a cynical view of women to have.

23

PunditLisa, Jodi, cuauhtemoc,

I just want to say again that I totally understand why a prenuptual would look like someone is expecting it not to work out. I totally do.

I’m 32 and haven’t been married yet. It is not something I take lightly and when I do take that leap I expect it will be FOREVER. I expect it will take work to keep it vital and happy, just like any relationship does. Moreover, I feel that if I were to ever get a divorce, it would be a failure on my part, and the idea of failing myself, the person I love and any kids that would have entered the picture would among the worst failures I could make.

When I get married, it will be forever. I believe this.

But then I ask myself, what did those 50% of married couples think when they were walking down the aisle? “Ah, I give it 5 years at most.”

When I get married, it will be forever. I believe this. But I’m not omniscient and have been wrong before.

My sister got divorced. And it started out really amicable. That was 5 years ago. Today, they are mortal enemies. I never want to be that way with someone I was in love with. I see a prenup as keeping a terrible thing from becoming a terrible thing x 10.

Given the statistics, I see this as being pragmatic and realistic. But I’m sure others will view me as a cold-blooded cynic, but I hope you won’t.

24

I think if you feel the need to sign a pre-nup, then why get married at all? It’s just a piece of paper- just live together and keep your finances separate.

25

PunditLisa, I know a lot of people who loved and trusted their spouse when they got married and aren’t married any longer. I can love and trust my spouse all I want, but if he turns out unworthy of that trust, I’ve screwed myself.

I’m not planning on dying. But I have a will and life insurance.

eeeeevon, the pre-nup is just a piece of paper - or the marriage license? The marriage license, as I pointed out before, is a piece of paper that grants some legal rights - some of which may come in handy in fifty years of togetherness. In fact, for the pragmatic, it may be even more important to get married than for the romantic - people living off love don’t need the legal rights of marriage. The pre-nup is another peice of paper that contracts some rights between parties.

26

Dangerosa -
Yes I meant the marriage licence is just a piece of paper. And yes–guilty as charged – I am a romantic just “livin off love” . 6 years and going strong…
I think contracts have no place in a relationship.
Of course-- my opinion could fully stem from the fact that I have no riches to protect— lol!

So if I was wealthy- maybe I would feel differently.

27

Yvonne, there are already contracts in any long-term relationship. They may not be written down and notarized, but you and your SO have made certain promises to each other, and provisions for future possibilities. You’ve not only agreed to a certain division of household work and financial responsibility, you’ve hopefully had the “what if I get pregnant” discussion. You’ve made plans for if one of you is sick or injured or dies. You’ve made contingency plans in case one of you becomes unemployed.

All those “I will” and “you will” and “we will” things you’ve promised each other are a verbal contract. And those contracts are absolutely essential in a relationship.

A pre-nup, to me, is just another set of contingency plans. I certainly don’t intend to get divorced, but people change, and circumstances change, and none of us can see the future. Fifteen years down the road I might decide I can no longer live with his insane work schedule. He might decide he can’t stand being around my dogs for even one more day. (And yes, he’d go before the dogs would, just like I’d go before his patients would.) One of us could become a tight-ass mega-conservative bore.

If you actually have assets to protect, or expect to build them up in the near future through one partner’s efforts, I think prenups are a good thing…if you both agree to them. If Dr.J had wanted a prenup, I’d have signed it. After all, in a few years he’s going to be making at least five times what I do, purely through his own efforts. Any property we acquire will mostly be through his earnings, and I would have no problem with him getting most of it in the event of a divorce. (I wouldn’t want it weighted to allow for the support I’ve provided to his career, because there’s no way to put a price tag on my heart, or my time, or the decisions I might have made differently.)

I suppose we could just shack up, but I can’t live like that. We lived together for 6 months before the wedding, and after the initial novelty of having our stuff wore off, it felt like this weird limbo between marriage and not-marriage. It was really starting to get on my nerves by the end, and I would never have made it for a year, much less indefinately.

28

I’m not saying the pre-nups are the devil-- The question was “would you ever sign a prenuptual agreement” and for me- right now- i’d have to say no.

“…it felt like this weird limbo between marriage and not-marriage”

This is a really interesting statement. It sort of crystalizing for me a way of thinking-----that life is a serious of “points” , rungs in a ladder, a progression, moving forward in a pre-determined path, that there is a first, next and last that we are supposed to follow…

I guess I just dont see “shacking up” (lol- love that expression) as an “inbetween” if you don’t have the marriage certificate. I think You are eith are married or you are not-- whether you have a ceremony or not. Ya know?

I’m not living in dreamy land, we have had all of the discussions that you are talking about and it’s understood, we both feel the same. We trust.

There is a cool saying-- “worrying is just wishing for what you dont want to happen”

thanks for the great conversation!

29

Yes, the marriage certificate has nothing to do with the love and committment. But it is a nice thing to have if you are going to - oh, adopt a child from Korea (have to be married three years - my son is from Korea).

My mother in law had been divorced for years. And she and her live in boyfriend had been together fifteen years. A few years ago, they got married. Why? - because she was nearing retirement and wanted his benefits. She, like recent college graduates all over the country, got married for health insurance. She will also qualify for his pension, his SSI survivor benefits (if they are better than hers independant ones, and they may be). If he dies, she will inherit his estate with somewhat less messiness.

Now, its possible that none of this mundaneness will ever interfere with your relationship. That’s cool. But for a lot of people, this mundaneness of needing to have the piece of paper makes things a lot more livable.

This gets, however, into the whole marriage or not debate and away from the pre-nup discussion.

BTW, I don’t have a pre-nup. When I married my husband we were both struggling. We had similar backgrounds (my husband was not expected to outearn me x5) and we were pretty sure that kids were in the fairly near future. I’d been over his bankruptcy records and managed his finances for two years - I knew exactly what he did and didn’t have. I had somewhat more, but not enough to worry about.

But if I were to be in a position of remarrying now, I’d want my children’s potential assets protected (their college funds are held by me) and their security to adulthood ensured. I wouldn’t want to have to sell my house and divide up the assets because I was blinded by love into marrying a jerk. I’d want to be sure my retirement fund remained mine and that I didn’t have to pay spousal support to a mooch.

And I saw my brother in law - a guy with little - but something - marry a girl with a lot of debt he didn’t know about. And then he inherited a good bit of money. And now he is considering a divorce that will leave him with less than he started with. He loved her and trusted her, and the trust was misplaced. And her take on the whole thing was “its love, we are in it together, it shouldn’t make any difference what either of us has or doesn’t have.” And maybe he is a shallow person, but I don’t think he expected “in it” to be $150,000.

30

Actually, Yvonne, it’s not a pre-determined path so much as an open road, but yes, there are definite milestones along the way. And it really bothered me to be married in everything but name. If I’m going to have the headaches and hassles of being physically, emotionally, and spiritually married, by God I want the protections and rights that come with being legally married. I wanted the security of knowing that my parents couldn’t refuse him visiting rights if I landed in the ICU, that he’d be the one making my decisions if I were incapacitated. I wanted to be able to say, “This is my husband,” without feeling like I and everyone else was putting quotation marks around the word.

Some people can cohabitate for decades and never think twice about it, and I think that’s wonderful. Everyone should be able to choose their own path. It’s just not a path that would work for me. It would make feel insecure and unhappy, like he saw no point in buying the cow, so to speak.

31

Hmm… I think I need some schooling on prenups. I’m under the impression that when you marry, a person’s former debt does not become joint debt, and that equally, presents and inheritances & such that are given to one spouse do not become community property either. Am I wrong?
Personally, I would not sign a prenup. PunditLisa beautifully summed up my thoughts on making it easier for the man who is considering breaking my heart.

32

Well in response toWhite Ink, while I’m sure it varies by state, my mother had to give half of what she inherited when her mother died to my father in their divorce settlement.

I married my husband because I love him and I see us having a long wonderful life together. I also wanted to legally combine our assets and be able to have joint bank accounts, buy a house together, get family health insurance, have him make medical decisions for me, have our retirement benefits together …

We also wanted to start a family. I was supposed to be infertile so we were looking at adoption for a time. That is certainly easier to manage married! Now that we have children, I am glad we are married for their benefit. If something happens to one of us there will be no property/beneficiary hassles that might hurt the children.

I think more people should consider prenuptial agreements before they marry if for no other reason than to put marriage into perspective and make them understand what marriage means from a legal standpoint as well as an emotional one. There are far too many people who get married that shouldn’t and I stand by my original assessment that prenuptial agreements aren’t a harbinger of doom.

33

tanookie I think you are right on the money with this…

PunditLisa

A marriage license is a piece of paper that states “ownership of property”

Also

And I had stated

My mom works 12 to 16 hour days 7 days a week. She never asked for a whole lot from my asshole father or punkass step dad. And the legal issues with the step father went pretty smooth because of the prenumpt.

I am not saying all women are out to claim half or more after a year of marriage. I have seen men do the exact same shit.

I am saying to put your marriage into a emotional and legal perspective you should have the respect of your future spouse to have all ends covered.

SO TO EVERYONE:

You buy life insurance in case shit happens.

You buy house insurance in case shit happens.

You buy care/fire/tornado/flood/whatever insurance in case shit happens.

You don’t want it to happen but sometimes “SHIT HAPPENS :)” (famous bumper sticker with appropriate smilee-run forest run)

So what wrong with getting a prenumpt in case shit happens???

How are you supposed to know I won’t have a mental breakdown in 10 years and go looney or that you won’t under poor judgement cheat on me in a fit of rage over something?

Shit happens :)!

34

I’ll tell you why you get married. So I, as the father of my child, can get my name on his birth certificate, so in the unlikely event of his mother’s untimely demise, I can waltz right into whatever local facility he is being held in (lets just say mom and baby had a horrible car crash, and only he survived) and check him out into my custody and take him home with me.

Where I live, unmarried fathers don’t automaticly appear on birth certificates, and hospitals don’t just “take your word for it” that you are the legal guardian of someone.

Another reason: Lets say I go out riding on one of my motorcycles and a little blue-haired old lady turns left in front of me (or maybe a 17 year-old girl yakking on her cell phone) and kills me DEAD on the spot. Now, knowing my sister, she would swoop down like a vulture with hemmoroids and have all my shit packed and loaded and up for sale before the coroner could finish filling out the toe tag. The woman I live with couldn’t stop her. She has no legal claim to anything of mine. In fact, if her name wasn’t on the mortgage, I’m sure old Sis would kick her the hell out of the house before the ants had carried away the greasy nuggets from the spot I snuffed it.

Another reason: My kid ain’t going thru life as a bastard!

You get the idea.

Marriage isn’t a word. Its a sentence.

35

The shit happens argument is failing to convince me that I should protect the finances of someone who is considering that he may choose to leave me.

36

Try on this scenario for size:

X is single and has a house worth 100K.
Y is single and has a house worth 100K.
They marry, sell X’s house, put the 100K in the bank, and move into Y’s house.
They earn equal incomes and share all expenses equally.
When they separate, they sell the house and each move into rental apartments, so now there is 200K in the bank to be divided between them somehow.

It would seem fair if each walk away with 100K, however, where I live (and note that the law differs by jurisdiction), the law is such that X would get 150K and Y would get 50K.

That is why a pre-nup is a good idea where I live.

Refusing to negotiate a fair pre-nup can be no more than insisting that unfair rules be used.

37

I still can’t see how the marriage vows and the pre-nup can be reconciled; the vows are all about ‘I absolutely will, no matter what the personal cost’ and the pre-nup adds a ‘but…’ to that - you can’t have an absolute with a ‘but’ - the pre-nup modifies the vows.

38

I will decide when I get married.

39

Are you sure it’s absolutely impossible that you’d ever choose to leave him?

What do you think about all the other people who thought the same thing, then changed their minds 10 years down the road… how can you be sure you won’t be one of them? You know how you feel now, but unless you have a crystal ball, you don’t know how you’ll feel then.

40

IT makes a lot of sense to me when you are talking about property that you may not reall consider “yours”, even if the law does. Say, for example, someone had a sizable amount of money from their (deceased) spouse. They might well legally own the money, but consider it to actually be held in trust for their children. I might have the right to plege all MY worldly goods to someone else based on trust, but I don’t have the right to pledge away my children’s stuff–in the same way that if you let me borrow your car I wouldn’t turn around and loan it to someone else, no matter how much I might trust them. Family heirlooms would be another situation in which the person who was the legal owner might not feel like they had the right to even open up the possiblilty that they might slip out of the family.

There’s also the problem of money that isn’t really there: let’s say I owned 50% of a small, growing company with half a dozen employees, who were also shareholders. If, as a result of the divorce prceeding I either lost control of a quarter of the company or if I was ordered to pay half of the paper value of a growing company–which often have high “paper” values but very, very little liquid–I would be messing with the livelyhood of a dozen other families. I can see someone thinking that that wasn’t theirs to gamble.

As for the other, there are lots of unstated amendments to "‘I absolutely will, no matter what the personal cost’ in most marriages–there’s an “unless you cheat, unless you hit me, unless you threaten any children we might have, unless I discover something new and unacceptable, (such as pathological lying or an ongoing crime spree)” Not mentioning all those “unlesses” dosen’t make them go away, and if some people chose to be upfront about what they would do in the case of those eventuallities, more power to them.

Furthermore, prenups don’t have to be about money. I’ve seen so many nasty, nasty divorces that I can see why someone might want to have a pre-nup regarding both partner’s responsiblilites to the kids in the event of a divorce. Again, I have the right to take a leap of faith for myself. Taking a leap of faith for minor children is a differnet matter.

41

People change.

Here, lemme repeat that. People change. To claim that you know that you will love someone forever is tantamount to a false promise, unless you can choose to be in love. If you don’t have conscious control over your ability to love, than claiming that you can and will do it for the rest of your life seems either silly or a breach-of-contract to me. I see prenups as an expression of this, and a good idea.

Hell, what a prenup would say to me would be, “I love you enough to trust that you won’t be insulted by my being practical about possible problems down the road, and have a realistic view of human nature, and therefore will probably be better at keeping this from being necessary than someone whose sense of romance overwhelms their judgement.”

Yes, all that. In one breath, even.