It may have been only five years but military aircraft technology moved a long way between 1945 and 1950. Those WWII aircraft would have been obsolete in the Korean War even if they were in perfect working condition.
Considering the wind patterns in Ukraine blow eastwards into Russia, I’d speculate Moscow is probably telling its field commanders to stop shelling nuclear reactors.
Ukraine has been seeking NATO membership since 2014, and has been on the path to getting it. Their constitution was changed in 2019 as part of that path. NATO has said that Ukraine will be granted member status when it completes the membership action plan, and that Russia would not have a “veto” based on the outmoded idea of “spheres of influence.” Zelensky begged to be granted emergency membership in NATO as Russia began invading.
Ukraine is not a “neutral non-ally” and Russia is in effect exercising a strenuous veto over Ukraine’s membership in NATO.
I agree with this with one addition. Because it’s a change in Ukraine’s status, give Russia something like 24-48 hours to withdraw its troops (or whatever is reasonable if they hump it and don’t dawdle). Tell them the grace period instantly ends if they do anything offensive instead of withdrawing with all haste. Maybe there could be a carrot as well, that the sanctions, or most of them, will end if they withdraw promptly.
As soon as Ukraine is secure, begin thinking about charges in The Hague.
How about not letting Russia dictate who gets to join NATO?
And it’s saying that once you have a sufficient nuclear arsenal, you can do whatever you like with impunity.
I don’t think it should be a pretext. This war was already, itself, criminal, but attacking a nuclear plant is an undeniable, and extremely dangerous, war crime. This should trigger a change in NATO’s position.
A few days ago the reactor workers were doing their normal day-to-day jobs, albeit in weird stressful circumstances; now they will be doing this as prisoners for possibly the rest of their lives. And the rest of Ukraine will, over the next few months or years be systematically destroyed and/or imprisoned, while we just sat back and watched (yes we delivered tons of money and materiel) and did nothing of necessary substance.
It will not be nice to hear about what happens to some Ukrainian women as areas become occupied.
If I was introduced to a Ukranian-Canadian I would personally feel like a hypocritical shit as I offered my thoughts and prayers about their dire situation.
a tidbit on why the european fighter deal seemed to have fallen through:
a tweet - not verified information
I think the NATO jets had been modified to a western configuration and are not compatible with the versions the Ukrainians fly. It would take a while to train pilots to operate the different configuration. As a former fighter pilot I can tell you it’s not a trivial task
Sorry, but the situation you’re worried about coming to pass is already here. The difference in the handling of Iraq vs N. Korea makes it very clear that if you are going to take actions on the world stage against US interests, it is a really good idea to have nukes.
As far as how NATO engagement can escalate, consider the following scenario. US declares a no fly zone, which Russia disputes and violates. So fighter jets launched from an airbase in Poland shoot down several Russian aircraft. In retaliation, Russia launches a missile strike at the Polish airbase killing 3 American airman and 13 Poles, claiming that it was a defensive strike to protect their aircraft in the field. Now Russia has launched an attack on a NATO member, which requires that NATO go to war against Russia.
The scenes of the people trying to cram on the trains, some even holding up their babies to the crowd, and all the crying toddlers, is breaking my soul.
I can’t believe I’m watching this happen. I was so excited about the beautiful spring and summer in store now that we almost have covid under control.
Such a senseless loss of life.
I’m told that humans have a psychological quirk such that we can acutely feel a tragedy that befalls an individual or a small number of individuals. One death, a hundred deaths, we can feel grief and horror over this. But we can’t really register something bad happening to a million people. It’s just too big for our wiring to handle.
I feel like that’s what’s happening in the discourse about “should NATO intervene.” We want to feel that we’re doing something for thousands of people, and our brains are shutting out the fact that we’re talking about risking the lives of a billion people. Billion, with a “B”. It’s simply not a serious thing to talk about, yet people are batting around the possibility like it might be fine.
Nobody should rationalize this by telling themselves that Russia’s nuclear forces are unready. Even if only 5% of their weapons work in a conflict, this would still cause massive death, destruction, and social upheaval in ways that are going to absolutely guaranteed to ruin your life. Yes, you personally, I’m talking to you. Even in the rosiest case scenario, you stand a good chance of dying. Someone you know will die. For some people, everyone you know will die. And that’s in the mildest strategic nuclear exchange.
Think it through.
I do not doubt that it would take awhile to get checked out in a modern jet well enough to enter combat - so why not start immediately? I’d be very happy to be wrong on this - but this war doesn’t look to be over in a week or a month.
What you’re asking for here is for you, and everyone you know, to either die immediately in a nuclear strike or starve to death in the following months. Along with millions of people in countries who never wanted anything at all to do with Russia or NATO.
You need to be starkly clear about what this Christmas wish entails. This is not something to gamble with.
Yeah, agreed. I think some folks don’t really seem to understand the ramifications or implications of a direct US or NATO attack into Ukraine. It would be a declaration of war…and a war NATO isn’t prepared for, as well as a war that could see Russia launching nukes at the west and the whole world burning.
I definitely don’t wish for this in any way. My wish is for someone to put a bullet into Putin, or at least knock his political legs out and force him and his regime to halt the war, withdraw troops, and for the Ukrainians to get some peace.
Honestly I don’t know how this ends. I know we can’t let it get to a nuclear exchange, and that may mean helplessly watching a lot of Ukrainian death that ought to be preventable. It makes me ill to know this is the case, but it is what it is.
Yeah, it is. I feel the same way. It’s what we can do, and it’s the smart thing to do…but it sucks. Big time. I do understand the emotions of those wishing we could do more, wanting to help Ukraine. But we can’t. They are going to have to do this themselves, sadly.
My reading of the situation is that the deal to have nations provide Russian made planes in exchange for ones from the West fell through because those countries didn’t feel comfortable having a portion of their air forces inoperable while their pilots were being retrained. Especially at a time when the bear is raging near their borders.
This feels very much like a “first they came for the Ukrainians, and I did nothing because I was not Ukrainian” moment. What would stop Putin from saying he’d consider it a hostile act against Russia for any nation to provide aid or materiel to Ukraine? Do we and all of NATO stop what little help we’re giving because he might launch nukes? What happens to the next country he wants to annex–or that wants to join NATO and Putin decides to make that country not exist anymore?
I’m terrified of nuclear war, too. I grew up in the 80s. But we also can’t give Russia carte blanche to do what they want, and take what they want. We can’t let them have unchecked power over us because they have nuclear weapons.
I mean, Putin rattled his nuclear saber over wanting talks with Ukraine after the fighting started. He’s apparently willing to threaten to use them over virtually anything.
If we don’t do more now, we at least have to take actions that will make Putin’s remaining time in office extraordinarily short.
It definitely is. If I were Taiwan, I’d be paying particular attention to all of this…and planning accordingly.
Nothing stops him from doing this…except knowing that it would probably be ignored and his bluff would be called.
I don’t think it would be politically possible, with the current mood, for countries to stop giving what aid they can. I don’t think NATO or the US could or would backdown at this point from providing that aid. It’s little enough we are doing, but having the Russian’s force us to stop giving even that? I don’t think any politicians would survive doing that. Currently, in the US at least, it seems both parties are behind giving aid to Ukraine and with the sanctions regime. If the US backed down it would be back to vicious political infighting, and I don’t think the party in power who allowed it to happen would survive. And in Europe, I can’t see any of the current governments going along, especially the NATO members. Germany is actually increasing its assistance, and they seem to have had a serious wake up call. They aren’t going to back down or go back to sleep at this point. And neither are the NATO members in eastern Europe. I can’t see France or the UK doing this either…or their governments surviving if they did, though maybe European 'dopers could chime in with their thoughts on the current moods of their voters.
Putin has really done the impossible…he’s united, at least on this issue, the west.
The thing about threats like this are that they only work if they are allowed to. After all, the west has nukes too. Which he’s well aware of. It’s fine to rattle his sabers, but there is going to be a point where NATO won’t back down. They can’t, not and survive. Because, unlike Putin, they actually are answerable to their electorates.
a plausible scenario … but couldn’t that be mitigated by enforcing the no-fly zone from within Ukr. - not via fighters but via ground-air-missiles?
Assuming the same scenario (downing sev. russian planes) the place where the missiles started would get hammered (or not, depends on their defense mechanisms), but that is happening in a country that is already at war and sees attacks.
If this worked, than that could get pretty frustrating for the russians … losing a significant percentage of your airforce due to superior tech from the “alliance”
OK, but then you have American boots on the ground in a combat zone. If the Russians launch an artillery barrage at the airport (so very sorry comrade American we had no idea your planes were there. We were just attacking the Ukrainian aggressors) they would be in harms way.
strange thought that crossed my mind …
Trump and Putin - Nato’s Jing and Jang
I think both have too much yang…and, are definitely both dicks. 
But they certainly both had negative effects on NATO that, perhaps, will assist in long term corrections that will benefit everyone in the western alliance. Both for what not to do.