WTF? Bush calling critics revisionist historians!?!?

December, your 10:09, 06-17-03, post is just astonishing. Clearly the position you advocate is one wholly lacking in any sense of shame. How can a person of intelligence and experience publish such drivel? Let us go through your briefing points one at a time and in order:

[li]Iraq had indicated that they would never obey their commitments and the UN resolutions.[/li]
Iraq had admitted UN inspectors in the months before the invasion. The people running the inspections were, if not perfectly happy with the level of Iraqi cooperation, at least satisfied that the inspectors were making reasonable progress and were not being unreasonably interfered with. This is hardly consistent with an indication that Iraq would not comply with the UN directive.

[li]Iraq had large amounts of WMDs[/li]
That is sort of the problem, isn’t it. You say that Iraq had large amounts of chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons (and if you mean WMD to mean something else please tell me), but none have been found. No traces of any have been found. If Iraq had them the US searchers should be able to find at least forensic traces. Also, no prohibited SCUDs. Also, no NBC weapons used against US and UK troops. You seem to concede only that the reports of WMDs were exaggerated–but which reports and exaggerated by who?

More importantly, WMD were the pretext for the invasion. If there are no WMDs what was the justification for the invasion?

[li]Iraq had a desire to acquire an arsenal of WMDs.[/li]
Well, so what? I have a desire to retire with more money than I can spend in a life time and have Mrs. Gelding turn into a supermodel. I have a desire to be youthful and handsome and smart, too. I may have a desire to rob a bank. That does not justify may arrest as a bank robber. Sadam’s supposed desire to have nuclear weapons does not turn him into a clear and present danger to the vital national interests of the United States. It certainly provides a basis for watching him very closely and for getting the UN inspectors in there, but it provides no justification for invasion.

[li]Iraq supported terrorism [/li]
Where? When? On September 11? Or the Palestinian fanatics? No one has demonstrated a connection between Iraq and the 9/11 attack. Plenty of countries have directly or indirectly supported the Palestinian fanatics. Who else can invade on that basis–Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia? Who? How does paying a subsidy to the survivors of Palestinian suicide bombers directly and seriously threaten the vital national interests of the United States

[li]Saddam hated the US[/li]
Good Lord, man! How would you like to compile a list of the countries with governments that don’t much like the US. Sadam can hate the US until the cows come home and it is no threat to the US. Hell, Ann Coulter thinks I hate the US.

.[li]All non-military approaches had failed to bring them into compliance.[/li]
There was a non-military approach going on even as the President pushed the red button. There was every chance that a rigorous inspection backed by the threat of force would reveal whether Iraq was out of compliance and bring them into compliance.

[li]Because of the corruption of certain member countries and the UN itself, the UN was never going to take effective action.[/li]
This is just fraudulent, plain and simple and you are going to have to come up with more than this broad and conclusitory statement before any one is going to accept the “French Fry” argument.

[li]The US had the wherewithal to win the war quickly and with relatively few casualties.[/li]
Can there be a more cynical argument for war than this. We were justified in invading Iraq because we could. How is this not a restatement of the principle of might makes right.

[li]The cruelty of the Ba’ath regime justified regime change all by itself[/li]
Without question the governance of Iraq was deplorable. That a government governs cruelly, that its ruler is a despot, that its principles are offensive to all ideas of good government, as long as it does not thereby present a clear and present danger to the vital national interests of the United States provides no basis for war.

I have seen bankrupt argument in these boards before. I have urged some bankrupt arguments. The likes of your post, December I have never seen before. I am, sir, astonished by the mendacity, the dishonesty, the slavishness of your comments. Is there no act of the present Administration that you will not rise to defend, no matter how contrary to any concept of national honor, fair dealing and decency?

December, if Saddam was such a cruel dictator, does Reagan bear responsibility for putting Saddam in power? Is the blood of Saddam’s victims on Reagan’s hands?

I long for November 2004 when I can vote this clown out of office.

A: I apologized to *you in that thread only for my judgemental tone, a tone I have strenuously tried to avoid in subsequent threads, including this one. What part of “you just post shit I disagree with” are you having trouble interpreting, dear? (I never promised to avoid condescension and insult.)

B: I promised not to drag personal shit into GD. This is the Pit. I realize you’re stupid and dishonest, but do try and keep up, babes.

C: This thread’s about the Bush administration’s mendacity, not yours (although you’re exemplifying the methodology nicely). Get over yourself.

It would be if Reagan had actually put Saddam in power.

We should most definitely make Hank Kissinger our special envoy to the Kurds. They would simply love to get thier hands on…love to greet him with special celebrations of joy and celebration. Who deserves it more, sugar pants?

Who do you really think you’re kidding?

Here again is word for word, what you said:

Yes. I’ve noticed that that’s what it was about. Unfortunately you did not. Rather than talk about the issue you have chosen to come into this thread and take issue with me, personally. Rather than do so based on the merits of the discussion you have used your old tricks of agitating trouble between two parties, taking issue with word choice, and attacking personalities to the exclusion and hijack of the thread.

Your presence here has not been helpful or constructive in any fashion except perhaps to satisfy your mean streak and your admitted ongoing personal issue with me.

Keep it up and see where it leads you.

We in the rest of the world are relying on you guys to do it for us, because we can’t. Good luck in your endeavour.

The more I’ve been thinking about it, and threads like have forced me to do so, the more I have to conclude that Bush is no more of a threat to world peace than Clinton was, or Bush before him, or Reagan. From a UK point of view Blair is no more dishonest than Major, or Thatcher.

All of the above have made very questionable decisions for military action that seem more driven by politicial aims than by anything else.

Obviously Bush has had more of a high profile in this area than Clinton - but how much of that is because he’s inherited a range of fucked up situations, and how likely is it that his successor will just have to react to an even bigger mess?

It was more the dismantling (rather than fixing of) international treaties and bodies to make the war happen that worries me - and that these are the people behind him. If you haven’t read “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” from that site, I urge you to.

I will read it and no doubt I will be worried.

But let’s go back a few years to Operation Desert Fox. A few hundred cruise missiles and dozens of bombing raids - all very conveniently timed. Sorry, but that’s an act of war however you care to paint it. Before that, we have Bush and Gulf War 1 (with help from Major) - and I really don’t want to get into a rant about the way we fermented revolution, then changed our minds and stepped back as Hussein punished the people we’d promised to support. Thatcher and the Falklands, anyone…honestly, do you really think that somehow we can just neatly blame this whole fucking trend of war as political tool upon Bush and his advisors.

And do you really think it’s going to get better? You think a democrat president will somehow solve the whole fucked up mess? To be honest, I think that Clinton was every bit as scary as Bush - he just sold himself better on the international stage. The next democrat president will likely be morally comparable to his republican opponent too.

Sorry mate, I just don’t think this mess can be apportioned quite as neatly as the partisan would like to.

Well I too disagree with blind partisanship, so I do get what you’re saying. I’d see it as degrees of badness and pragmatism, rather than Democrats = good, Republicans = bad. I would expect the Democrats to be somewhat more internationalist rather than go-it-alone-ist. And not in the thrall of the PNAC.

Fair nuff, but I see it more as a case of meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Come to the dark side, Jimm. Give up your optimism and faith in human nature and join me in capitalist cynicism. The situation is just as depressingly grim but you get to laugh at both sides party adverts, and you tend to drive a better car. If the whole world’s going down the tubes you might as well travel in comfort.

You’ll never take me alive, Gary! Never!

Hmm. Can I get leather bucket seats, Gary?

Be sure they’re fully reclining.

and don’t forget the spin.

Yeah, but it’s been a long time since George Washington was president.:wink:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20030618/pl_usatoday/5252422

Things don’t look better for Tony Blair, who is lacking the lap dog Fox News Channel to spread his cover story.

On the WMD issue:

source disclosure: from an Op/Ed piece:

http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.witcover18jun18,0,4743063.column?coll=bal-home-columnists

Interesting opinions follow as to the differences in the public and media reactions in the two countries.