It’s not possible to know what The Almighty is up to. Maybe He laughed His ass off at the bombing. Or maybe He stopped six other bombings this week(which we never heard of because they didn’t happen) and this one slipped through the cracks and He’s really kicking Himself over it. Maybe He doesn’t exist. Maybe He’s powerless to stop human will. There’s no way to know, so why are you so sure He hates you?
–John
By helping other people, even those who impugn our morality.
Most theists, BTW, can pray and do something useful simultaneously.
I’ve just got a question on the aside here–feel free to ignore me. What’s the point of having a religion and believing in an all-powerful, all-merciful god, when you turn around and blame him for stuff like this? Why not just believe in a god just like one of us: fallible, and pissy? Just like the ancient Greeks? Worked well for them…
REASON
Jester said that “(a)ccording to Christianity, God gave us free will. FREE will. Meaning that we could do whatever the Hell we wanted, but we’d be judged by our actions in the end. Meantime, he’s there to lend a helping hand, to offer support for suffering people, and maybe even throw a miracle or two into the mix. But he can’t just stop the damn plane from hitting the building. That would violate free will.”
That sounds good, but I was under the impression that that certain Bible verses intimate a more deterministic existence for His creations. If the Judeo-Christian God is an actual, empirically functioning entity as His followers claim, His actions, along with the “reality” He has created, are fraught with just these sorts of paradoxes. How any reasonable person can adhere to the inherently self-contradicting Christian paradigm of God is beyond me.
Presumably, at least two passengers aboard the doomed aircraft(s) prayed “in His name” for some sort of divine intervention. “Whenever two or more are gathered in His name, etc…” Isn’t that the claim? They were ignored, of course. What can we learn from this? Petitionary prayer doesn’t work, or at least that petitionary prayer doesn’t serve the function it is presumed to serve. Think about it: an omnipresent, omniscient, all-benevolent diety isn’t going to take requests, isn’t going to alter His preordained agenda.
Also, keep in mind that, in the Old Testament, God intervenes with humankind on a near constant basis, slaughtering thousands on a whim, killing individual O.T. characters for ridiculously mundane reasons (in Kings II, I believe, one of the prophets, after being mocked as a “Baldy-Head” by a group of school-children, convinces his loving, “judge not lest ye be judged” God to have them mauled and eaten by a bear), enacting miracles left and right, and generally acting as inspiration for a marching, maurading atrocity machine.
We can’t have it both ways.
I would like to offer a deeply felt FUCK YOU! to IN REPAIR, LOCKFIST, and any other insensitive piece of shit who desires to attack or attempt to undermine my faith at such a time, simply because they do not share it.
Easy there, Jodi. Remember–you have your faith to help you withstand this. They do not.
Um…Jodi, I simply stated facts. No ad hominem attacks (that’s what YOU did.) I can’t help it if your religion is nonsensical (sp?). For all I know, that’s the way things are supposed to be. One poster was angry at God for causing/allowing the attack, another placated the same poster with claims of humankind’s free will. I propose that The Bible oscillates between both positions, and it’s troublesome.
Judging from your reaction, you worry about this as well. Your insecurity shows in your “fuck you!”
To you. Not to others.
God bless you, InRepair, and hold you in the palm of his hand
Wait…you didn’t realize that sometimes prayer doesn’t work until today? There are plenty of examples from everyday life that can prove that just as easily. For example, Jesus didn’t help me do my Spanish homework last night. But you know what prayer DOES do? It offers an outlet, a glimmer of hope, it makes you let you know that you’re not alone even in the most dire of circumstances. It’s not an issue of rationality, it’s an issue of faith. Of course you’re not going to get it if all you’re expecting is for St. Peter himself to come and stop the planes from hitting the buildings.
And again, this isn’t some “agenda” that God planned. It’s free will, plain and simple. And Lockfist, I’m curious as to how you know this was done for religious reasons. Got any info you want to share with the FBI?
This is why I and a whole lot of other people don’t take the OT literally. I think to a large degree it is a group of parables used to lay out guidelines for our religion, and give us an idea of what to expect from the afterlife. But hey, God does a lot of good stuff in the OT, too, so why aren’t you using it as evidence for His existence every time something good happens? Just to be fair.
The bottom line, once again, is this: religion, at the very least, gives something to let people know that they’re not alone even in the worst of moments. Call it irrational if you want, but I’m still praying for the lives of the people still trapped in that building.
I could give a rat’s ass what you think of my religion. In fact, I suspect that I would only be concerned about my personal decisions if you approved of them.
The fact of the matter is that many people are people of faith, and they have the right to rely upon that faith in times of crisis. When insensitive assholes such as yourself choose those precise times to attack that faith, it pisses me off.
Allow me to be more clear and repetitive in that ad hominem attack: You, sir, are an insentive asshole. Rest assured I do not “worry” about my philosophical views matching your own; I will begin to worry when they do.
“Good theology is never well constructed in times of crisis or stress.”
It really is the wrong time to have this discussion. While I believe Jodi and other religious folk are praying to empty air, they derive comfort from their faith. It is unkind to mock them for it now, when hope is so desperately needed. Besides, there is no definitve proof one way or the other for the existence of God, so it really is beyond debate.
OTOH, Jodi, I would be more impressed with the depth of your faith if you didn’t respond with hateful remarks. Jesus said, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and pray for those who insult you in every way.”
GOBEAR, I will leave you to imagine how desolate I am to find that I have failed to “impress” you with the depth of my faith. Guess I’ll have to cross that off my list of my life’s goals.
I know what Jesus says. I even know what I should do. I’m having a singularly bad time doing it today, when I am so angry anyway. To have my faith insulted on top of that is more than I can bear at the moment. I therefore stand by everything I have said in this thread.
I was angry yesterday as I am today, as we all are.
I agree this is an inapporpriate time to have this discussion, I sincerely apologize for offending anyone and their personal values. It was especially insensitive of me.
Thank you gobear for making this clear to me.
Jeez, LOCKFIST, how am I suppose to stay mad at you when you gracefully apologize, even in the face of my irrationality?
I apologize to you as well. I can’t very well call you an insensitive ass if you refuse to do your part and act like one.
I know you’re angry, so I can handle being a target if it will make you feel better. I may not share your faith, but I do defend it if you’ll notice. It’s not right to pick on people for believing things that are ultimately not subject to refutation.
Anyway, I hope the Holy Spirit will take away the anger in your heart and give you peace.
Thanks, GOBEAR, me too, but He’s taking His own sweet time with it. Sorry I snapped at you.
Thanks for the apology, Lockfist. It was quite good of you.
[Tiny Tim]
God bless us, everyone!
[/Tiny Tim]