Yeah, god really loves his children

The BBQ Pit
41

If someone had the power to prevent a tragedy and refused to do so, we would be justified in calling him irresponsible. But if it’s God who refuses to act, He’s NOT being irresponsible? :confused:

It was reported on TV this morning that a police officer was freed from the debris of the WTC, and that it had been necessary to amputate his leg in order to free him. I guess that was part of God’s Plan[sup]TM[/sup] too?

Forgive me for wanting to stick a finger down my throat if you tell me God loved that man so much, He forced him to lose his leg.

42

It seems that in light of this tragedy(and all the others) there are three possibilities regarding divine intervention:

a. God helps us in times of need - if he feels like it, which he quite often doesn’t, for some reason we cannot possibly understand.

b. God has a strict non-intervention policy, a sort of heavenly Prime Directive. Perhaps he feels that in order to learn and grow as a society, we must learn to solve our own problems.

c. The atheists are right.

43

Some would say, Jab, that God created the world and has walked away from it…others might tell you that perhaps losing his leg saved this man’s life. I’d rather lose a leg than my life.

God, if he exists, to me, by nature defies logic. Believing in something you can not see (also known as faith is something rational people don’t like to subscribe to, except in cases of say, gravity. You can see the effects of gravity, but you can’t point at something and say for sure that God did it. That’s just the way it is.

God, if he does exist, in my book would be heartbroken and angered by the condition of the world today. I do not think he lets everything that happens by choice (I know you’re saying “But if He’s God, He calls the shots…” but bear with me)

God is uncomprehensible to the human mind, according to Scriptures. We can barely imagine God, much less his Master Plan. We, you and me, today might have a huge impact on the End-we might be naught. It isn’t our place to know. And it doesn’t really matter where we come from or where we go-it matters what we do here, and now.

Healing and compassion is needed in this time of anger and hurt, not snipping at one another. I’m glad to see the apologies of those who were angry with one another…

ARose said this in his email to me a few minutes ago…Religion is so stupid if it can make people do this, thinking that they’re serving God. Hello?! Are you even reading the scriptures of your holy book now, or are you just shooting and killing indiscriminantly in the name of a greater being? You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you for being the kind of inhuman piece of shit that makes this world what it is. Fuck you for thinking that death and violence is what any God would want. Lastly, fuck you for ruining the lives of so many.

I think everyone needs to watch what one says in the next couple of days/weeks. Emotions run high, and the faith of many is being put to the test. Belitting someone else’s belief won’t get you far.
Personally, I hope to God there is a God…to be atheist seems so hopeless.

44

So you’re telling me that the God that created the universe was unable to save that man’s life without making him lose a leg? Yeah, tell me another one.

45

jab, read the post. SFT has given what is probably the most clear and concise take on God that I’ve seen in a long while. At what point did you neglect to read this:

For the last time, it’s called faith. It’s not logical, it’s not rational, it’s just…faith. It’s the belief in something higher, and y’know what? Right now it is the only thing in the world that’s keeping a whole lot of people going. It’s absolutely wonderful that you’ve achieve such a cold, logical approach to life that you can’t even wrap your mind around the idea of faith, but just because you can’t is no reason to come in here and trash the people who can. For God’s sake, get over yourself.

46

Why do you think God should limit himself to universes where busted legs are impossible, or spend all his time fixing them ? If you’re going to insist on silly rules like that you should be prepared to live in a world where legs cannot exist at all.

47

Okay. It’s the wrong time to have this conversation, and we don’t have to, but let’s note that I wasn’t “mocking” or “attacking” anyone’s religion. I never made light of Christianity. If you derive meaning and comfort from it, than Christianity is “good” in the sense that it does just that. I simply stated that the idea that this act could NOT have been prevented by God (in other words, that He always allows our free will to prevail) is not consistently borne out by The Bible. I said Christianity is “nonsensical,” and I stand by that, but, as Robodude noted (and as I said), maybe that’s just the way He likes it. So let me offer an ammendum: “nonsensical” in the sense that it is unreasonable. If you can live with those constant, nagging paradoxes, then fine, good, okay…I’m jealous of you, Jodi, in a way. If you can take the OT as parable, symbolism, etc., picking out the parts that appear to have violated only a few of this universe’s scientific maxims and supporting those and the ones that are most comfortable to endorse, then fine. I guess I’m alone on this, but I can’t make that leap, because, in the past, it’s those sort of leaps that have led men and women to commit horrible acts. One happened yesterday. And, of course, there was that thing known as The Crusades, as well. So when I hear God being let completely off of the hook, I feel the need to speak up and ask, “Why?” That’s all.

And one more thing, Jody did you choose to target ME, Jodi? Lenin and Drastic joked about Jesus, were sarcastic, and one called God a “deadbeat dad.” Why me? I’m not saying they deserve it (they don’t), but I thought I handled myself with decency and calm, completely levity-free, a cool-headed clarification. I simply stated FACTS along with the assertion that I don’t know how you guys and girls do it (believe.)

You’re right. We shouldn’t talk about this now, or ever, really, because to Christians it’s an attack (it’s the nature of religion for an adherent [sp?] to have nothing in the way of response save for “I just BELIEVE,” which, mind you, is fine under certain circumstances), and to non-Christians (those are the only types of people in the world, by the way) it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a hole.

I agree with you, Searching, it is impossible for us to know. We are fallible by definition, and the God concept embodies everything we are not (infallible, perpetual, omniscient, etc.), yet the claim that atheism (BTW, I am not an atheist, but an agnostic who concedes the above and the idea that atheism requires as much faith as religion) is “just so empty” and the “might as well believe, then” attitude feels wrong to me. Am I alone on this, too? (Pascal, in his famous Wager, said basically the same thing: if the believers are right, and there is a God, they will be rewarded for believing. If they’re wrong, they’ll suffer no loss. On the other side of the coin, if non-believers are wrong, they will have lost all.)

I won’t post any more on the matter, at least not at this time or under this particular thread, but I won’t apologize, either, because I don’t feel that I did anything wrong.

48

It’s not God’s ability to defy logic that bothers me (assuming He exists). It’s His indifference to our suffering. Assuming He exists, He could have stopped this event from happening. He could could have kept the planes from flying. He could have done ANYTHING, but He did nothing. I want to know why, in the face of that evidence, people continue to believe God loves us or that He even exists.

How did you get the idea that I’m cold and logical? What I am is furious and angry and frustrated and sad. (Yesterday, I was horrified.) Does that sound cold and logical to you?

Funny, I thought God was all-powerful, capable of doing ANYTHING with no effort whatsoever. A God who could create a Universe by simply speaking can certainly keep a man from losing his leg.

49

God can stop suffering - so where should he stop?

Hey. I stubbed my toe. It hurt. GOD COULD HAVE STOPPED THAT!!! HE HATES ME!!

Where do you draw the line? Do you expect God to stop ALL discomfort, “badness” and pain? And if He does that, you do realize we will become nothing more than puppets? That we’d have no free will, or choice?

God should stop people from exceeding the speed limit, because the adhereing to the speed limit is a GOOD THING. We’d never make poor investment choices. Or wait - why invest at all? We should all just have enough money at any time we want, right? If God LOVED us, he’d do that for us, wouldn’t He? Not having enough money causes many people distress. So WHY does God allow this? HE HATES US!!!

No one would eat fatty foods. We’d all exercise enough. We’d never date the wrong kind of person. We’d only wear sensible shoes.

Why should we have any choices at all? All we ever do is mess up anyway. Even in the little things, we mess up. And every day, we experience annoyances, distress, stress, pain, and discomfort. So why does God allow this? And who decides what discomfort is “big” enough for God to stop, and which discomforts are “minor”, and not big enough for Him to bother with?

50

A does not imply B. The absence of pain would not in any way imply the absence of free will, any more than the fact that you cannot fly or breathe underwater without mechanical aids implies an absence of free will.

51

JAB –

You assume He is indifferent to our suffering. Many others do not. Many of us believe that He comforts us in times of our greatest need. If He was indifferent to our suffering, He would take away our faith and let us truly suffer.

As has been explained numerous times on this Board, and by people far more knowledgeable and articulate than I, some of us believe that God does not often interfere with humanity’s exercise of free will, because to do so is to render us nothing more than sheep and to deny us the ability and the right to live our lives as they unfold. Some of us believe that God does not do away with suffering, even great suffering, because suffering is part of living – part of being alive – and that an existence of sheep-like perfect happiness would be less than a life. Some of us believe that we do not have the ability to understand why God allows horrible things to happen, and that it is something we will only know after we die ourselves. Not every person of faith believes all of these, or any of these, but they are some of the things believed.

Because I do not believe that God’s existence or His love is proven by interfering with the willful acts of mankind. It is found, rather, in the strength He gives us to struggle through horror; to live a full life beyond it; and to believe in love and live in love in spite of it.

I believe that God can do anything he chooses. I do not believe he is required to do anything he doesn’t choose. I do not believe that man’s inhumanity to man in any way reflects “God’s will,” either in the catalyst (crashing a plane into a building of civilians) or in the consequences (having to amputate a limb to free someone from the debris). But I also do not believe I have a right to understand why He does the things He does, and why He allows the things He allows. All I can do is try to live my life in faith of Him, and hope that though now I only understand in part, someday I will understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

I would also say that I find it interesting to see so many people raging against a God they profess not to believe in. It seems to me that those who are true non-believers do not bother to blame a fiction. And those non-believers who are generous of spirit do not begrudge the rest of us our “crutch” of faith in such a time, even if that’s exactly what they think it is.

52

vanilla said:

Well, it irked me to no end.

yosemitebabe said (not as a direct response, but beforehand):

Bolding mine.

53

I’ll tell you.

First, some background: I do indeed believe that God exists and that He loves us. I do not claim to have a perfect knowledge or understanding of Him or His workings. But I do know in my heart that we have been given our own agency–free will–to choose our own actions. We must face the consequences of those actions, both in this world and the next. Without our agency, this life would be meaningless.

And yes, God is all powerful. But this world is for our benefit. It is a probationary period for us to learn to make the right choices. Unfortunately, everyone does not choose the right path, although we can learn valuable lessons from their failures.

Could God have stopped the attack? Sure, I have no doubt of that. Would it have been a good thing for humanity as a whole if he had? I’m not so sure. The attacks this Tuesday have been the most horrendous, reprehensible acts I have witnessed in my lifetime. I have been experiencing all the same emotions you mentioned. But the terrorists were acting of their own free will, and in the long run, I wouldn’t want that taken away from anyone. Satan is the one who wishes to deny us our free will.

So thousands of people dies in a horrifically monstrous tragedy. This is not a good thing. However, good things can come out of it. Americans (for the most part) are being brought together for the first time since WWII. The best is being brought out in the millions who are helping in any way they can. It is terrible that it takes such an event to get us in gear, but we have become a hard-hearted people, by and large.

Was this God’s idea? No. Could he see the good that it might do in the long run? Yes. I am sure that this act saddened Him greatly, both for the lives which were cut short, and for the souls of those who committed the crime.

If we never experienced tragedy, we would have nothing to compare joy to. Evil is afoot in this world for a good reason.

I am frustrated by people blaming tragedies on God, and making statements like those made in this thread, while at the same time not acknowledging that the good things in this world come from Him as well. If you don’t believe in God as I do, that is certainly your prerogative, but don’t pick and choose aspects of a faith and twist them against the faithful.

Look at all the people who survived. A terrorist attack takes out an office complex which houses 50,000 workers, and we’re missing less than 5,000? A horrible tragedy, yes, and one which I wish never happened, but what a blessing that so many people got out alive, or were not present in their office as normal!

I pray that all of those who were involved in the attack are swiftly brought to justice. They deserve nothing less than death for their crime. I imagine they will be judged more harshly by God. I believe in a God of both mercy and justice. These terrorists have been offered mercy, but rejected it. Justice will be brought to them, both in this world and the next.

I am not asking you to suddenly believe in God as I do. I would request that you refrain from blaming someone in whom you do not believe for the evils of humans. This tragedy was completely the work of evil people. I can assure you that God loves us, and would have preferred that these people had not made such choices.

If I have not been clear at any point, I will be glad to clarify. I am only trying to explain my beliefs regarding this matter, at a very emotionally trying time.

54

Tell me why it was not possible for God to have created people with free will who nevertheless would NEVER have done anything evil. There is no reason to believe that a perfect person would not have free will. According to Scripture, Jesus had free will, right? Explain why God did not make us all like Jesus. It was certainly within His power to do so, right?

55

JAB –

If He removes from us any temptation to do wrong, in small ways or large, how can we be said to have “free will”? What meaning does the term “will” have in the absence of choices? If you give someone a “choice” between A and B, but work it so that he or she will never choose B, how is that a choice?

Free will is the ability to choose between that which is wrong and that which is right. It is the willful choosing to do that which is wrong, without regard to the consequences and without justification, that is IMO evil.

So are you asking why God did not make us all perfect? I know that the party line on this is that He initially did, and that we have made ourselves imperfect, through time and poor choices and being too much in this world and falling away from Him. I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “perfect,” though – but it seems to me that if “free will” means anything, it must mean the ability to be less than perfect.

Jesus was the Son of God and a manifestation of God. The question of whether God has the ability to create other Gods is an old philosophical favorite, and one I do not pretend to be able to answer. But clearly God did not create humanity to be gods, either separate gods or an aspect of his own godhead. He created them to be human – fallibility and imperfection and all. It seems to me that you are asking why God didn’t create us all to be something other than what we are – why He didn’t make us all something other than human. :: Shrug :: I don’t know. But I don’t believe that having made us human and given us free will, He then deals with us unfairly. We all experience the consequences of our choices (and other people’s choices); God is here to help us with those choices and to help us live with those consequences, if we want Him to do so and if we let Him do so. But He does not serve to make those choices for us.

Sure, but the mythos of Jesus indicates that He arrived as the Son of God long after Man’s fall from grace and the in

56

God is allowing the Devil his chance, even though in the end, we know God will win. He is allowing humanity their free will to choose God, because He doesn’t want to force us to choose Him. He allows such things to happen because He is kind and loving, and will serve a purpose in the end. The people that lived were allowed to live for some unknown purpose. The people that were warned away (“intuition”, “premonition”, or “sudden change of plans”) were graced because they have something else to do in God’s plan. I’m not saying that those who died didn’t have something to do, but that God wanted them back in His arms again. They are safe, and watching down on us with hopes for the future.

~C~

57

IMHO

58

Er, I’m not sure if you really meant to say that. Shouldn’t it be “we hope God will win?”

'Cos if we know the outcome, why all this shit in the middle? Where’s the free will?

59

Hmm. I’m not sure I follow you.

If I choose (use my free will) to hack off my hand with a knife, will I feel pain? Should God stop me from using my free will and cutting off my hand, or will he not allow me to feel any pain from the damage I’ve inflicted to myself?

If I decide to kill myself, will my loved ones not miss me, and feel emotional pain? Should I be prevented from using my free will to kill myself, or should my loved ones be prevented from feeling any emotional loss?

60

“Free will” does not mean you can do anything, it means you are freely capable of choosing between all available options.

As an example, when I went to work this morning, I could have chosen:

–To drive
–To take the Metro
–To take a cab
–To catch a ride with a friend
–To hire a limo
–To walk

I could not have chosen to teleport to work, because teleportation is not one of the existing options. Does that mean, because I could not choose to teleport, that I do not have free will? Of course not; it simply means that teleportation, being nonexistant, is not one of the things that I may choose.

I bring it up only as kind of a meta-point. I do not “blame” God for the events of Tuesday, not do I “blame” God for not having attributes or performing actions that I would find desirable in a God. I don’t believe in God.

But the fact is that a God can in fact create a universe in which pain or suffering does not exist without contravening the concept of free will. It simply places those things outside the options from which you can choose. If it is difficult to conceive of such a universe (given the fact that we live in one in which pain and suffering do exist), well, as many Christians are fond of telling many atheists, because you cannot conceive of it does not mean that it is impossible.

In addition, consider this: The Bible, in its depictions of heaven (and particularly in the Revelation), clearly states that pain and suffering will not exist there. (Rev. 21:4, NASB–“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” Given the theological implications, it strongly suggests that you will not even be capable of feeling sadness for those loved ones who are not in heaven with you. In other words, based upon the constraints you propose, you will not have free will in heaven, and will be, as so many like to phrase it, “happy sheep.” This, as I understand, is a condition in which you aspire to be. Why, then, is it so hard to conceive of a universe where the same is true?