I know that yelling fire in a crowded movie theater is illegal and that it was used as an example by Oliver Wendell Holmes in the court case of Schenck vs United States to show the concept of “clear and present danger” in 1917. My question which relates to a discussion earlier in one of my classes, is whether anyone knows of any instances when people got killed or severly injured caused by someone yelling fire in a crowded theater? Was Holmes’ example based on a factual incident? Was it in an actual movie theater? Any info. or leads would be REALLY helpful. I know that it seems kinda off but you just had to be present at the original discussion.
I doubt Holmes meant any specific instance; he was just making an illustrative example. Supposedly, Abby Hoffman once tried it out. People just looked at him and nothing happened.
Nobody objects if you yell “Movie!” in a Firehouse.
Thank you for replying.
My point and I do not know if I was correct in this was that yelling fire in a movie theater is not a big deal. Even if there was an incident in which people were hurt, this was back in 1917, when laws governing max. occupancy, adequate number of exits, … was not up to snuff. Why would it be such a danger to yell fire and yet one can legally yell that someone has a gun (which would probably result in the same feared consequences as the other). The concept of “clear and present danger” and the illustrative example has creeped into all of society. I understand that on the Wechsler IQ test one of the questions, is what would you do if you saw a fire in a movie theater. The correct answer is speak to management, not yelling fire in the theatre. The ex. was also used to justify that the words bomb and hijack could not be said in airports. Now the example (“it’s just the same as yelling fire in a crowded movie theater”) is used in reference to computer viruses (showing how they should not be protected as free speech). Sorry for the rant, but I really feel strongly against justifying curtailment of free speech by using that example. No one denies authorizing driver’s licenses on the basis that the person might someday be involved in vehicular homicide.
You are not correct. Falsely causing a panic in a crowd presents a clear and present danger, even if you were in an open lot. The danger exists that, even with plenty of exits, people will be injured/trampled/etc. by the panicked crowd. There are plenty of real-life instances where more people at a club/bar/etc. were killed in the panic to escape a fire than by the actual fire.
If there is no gun, you may not legally yell “gun” in a crowded theater. Justice Holmes was presenting an example, not a closed set.
Free speech and driving are not equivalent, so your analogy is not appropriate. Even if they were, your analogy is incorrect. Only in the rarest of circumstances may the right to speak be preempted before the speech is made. The sharply defined instances in which speech may be punished almost always occur after the fact.
Easy example, if you know someone is going to slander you, you can’t get an injunction to prevent the slander from being spoken. Instead, you can sue for damages afterwards.
Sua
As SuaSponte says, it sometimes happens that when there is a real fire, more people are trampled to death in the stampede than die the from the smoke or fire. More than 600 people died in the Iroquois Theatre fire in Chicago in 1903. Many of the victims were crushed against the exit doors which were either designed to open inward or were locked (reports vary). I’ve never heard of that sort of thing happening without a real fire, but I suppose it’s possible.
The Holmes statement is frequently misquoted. He never said anything about a movie theater. Nowadays we rarely go to any other kind of theater, but I don’t know which type Holmes had in mind. The Iroquois was not a movie theater.
If I’m reading this correctly, you (or those who quoted it to you) might have been mistakenly thinking that Holmes was saying that shouting fire in a crowded theater was illegal under any circumstance. As bibliophage & SuaSponte have indicated, it’s only shouting fire falsely that isn’t protected by the First Amendment. So if there actually is a bomb in an airport, I hope somebody’s talking about it.
Now, screaming and hollering when there actually is a fire is potentially a bad idea normal reaction, but it’s not illegal. A real fire is a life-threatening situation, and as far as I know peoples judgement as to whom to alert and when and how is not a legal question. So if someone was using Holmes’s example to talk about those who publicly point out susceptibility to viruses (or sell copy-protection-breaking software after notifying Adobe^H^H^H^H^H the publisher of the problem), they were wrong from the start.
Don’t know of any examples of fatal false alarms in theaters. But it happened on the Brooklyn Bridge shortly after it opened. Somehow a wild rumor spread that the bridge was falling, and frantic strollers rushed to “safety.” Several persons were killed in the reulting crush.
Oh, and I guess I should add that the Brookln Bridge is still standing.
I would like to add an incident that happened in Detroit in the 1970s, a porn theatre caught fire, the projectionist ran leaving the movie playing, the fireman had to call the police to remove the patrons. So long as they could see the picture they were staying. The police had a hard time getting them to leave even with smoke & fire in the seats. Now this doesn’t change the fact that people in a panic will do almost anything and shouting fire in any crowded area is sure to cause at least some injuries.
People get their licenses suspended all the time, usually for operating their vehicles in a manner likely to cause an accident.
Though apparently not in Minnesota.
– Beruang
I don’t think the OP has a good grasp on the obvious :rolleyes:
Um yeah, kniz. That’s kind of why we’re all here.