NotNow: Hormone therapy can deepen the voice of a FTM transsexual, but has no effect on that of a MTF. To achieve a more feminine voice requires voice training. This involves two things.
The first, and more important, is learning to alter speech patterns to that of the target sex. These are all generalizations, and there is much more variance within the sexes than there is between them.
Men tend to speak in a monotone, and women tend to vary tone and inflection much more. Men tend to speak in long passages without break, while women tend to speak in short bursts with more frequent pauses. Women tend to speak a little faster than men. Men tend to speak more loudly than women, and project more. And so on.
If you focus on deliberately using feminine patterns and inflections of speech, you can make yourself sound more female.
The second technique is voice training. By deliberately talking at a higher or lower pitch than natural pitch for long periods of time, you can train your voice to take on that new pitch, and it’s possible through a lot of training over a long period of time to significantly change one’s voice pitch.
Wayne Newton is the most popular performer in Las Vegas, with a deep, booming baritone voice. When he talks, the pitch is so deep you need a subwoofer to truly appreciate it.
Find a copy of his first hit, Danke Shoen and listen to it. Everyone hearing the song for the first time who haven’t been told otherwise thinks it’s a woman singing it. That’s Newton’s natural voice. He trained it down to the pitch it is now, deep even for a man.
It’s harder going up, but still possible. I didn’t have as much work to do, because, as I’ve mentioned earlier, I had less testosterone in my body than most men to begin with. My voice never broke, it just sorta deepened gradually, and stopped at a kind of in-between tone; higher than normal for a man, but deeper than what a woman typically has. Deliberately taking on feminine vocal characteritics got me 95% of the way there, and voice training elevated my pitch enough to get me the rest of the way.
At first it was a lot of work, especially since I wasn’t out at work. I’d be consciously working on my voice at home and in therapy, then going to work and talking naturally. As time went by, it became easier to talk feminine than masculine; at home was my “normal” voice, and I had to conscously change my voice at work. When I went on my involuntary sabbatical, I began talking feminine all the time, and now it’s my natural way of speaking. It would take a great deal of effort for me to sound male, it’s been so long since I’ve attempted it.
By the way, please attribute the enormous brain fart I made by not specifying the FtM vs MtF effect of hormones on the voice to … uh … that whole proposition thing.
Just out of curiosity, the listing of orientation (with or without the specifying “sexual”) in non-discriminatory policies … does it have any effect on an organization’s ability to legally terminate an employee for being trans? My feeling is that, strictly speaking, it would not, but this is based on a comment made by KellyM in the Pit several (or at least a few) months ago and I might be improperly filling in a memory gap.
[sub]Damnit, I was hoping to go the whole thread without an embarrassing slip-up like that! At least I didn’t confuse gender for sex again…[/sub]
I would doubt it, but you’d be better off asking her about that. I don’t know nearly as much about the legal stuff as she does.
And I apologize if I seemed to overreact to the Austin Powers bit. It’s one of my pet peeves and has nothing really to do with what you guys were doing.
It also occurs to me that I may have oversimplified the experience we had at the gay bar, and given the impression that it was the whole bar that made us feel unwelcome. It wasn’t.
It was our first time in a gay bar, and we’d gone as a kind of experiment, and because we were a little tired of being hit on in the regular bars, and we didn’t feel comfortable going dancing in a regual club. A gay bar seemed the best solution–nobody would look twice at two women dancing together, and we wouldn’t have unwanted attention from guys hitting on us.
We went in and found a table, and within minutes, we were being hit on. This surprised us, but it was foolishly naive to be surprised; of course people get hit on in gay bars, it just happens to be by other gays.
Anyway, a couple of butch lesbians approached us and we told them we were there together. This, by itself, seemed to annoy them a little bit, which still doesn’t seem to make any sense at all. When two women go into a gay bar together, wouldn’t it be natural to assume they might be, well, together? They sat down with us un uninvited, which was exactly the kind of aggressive behavior we had gone there to avoid. We engaged in some small talk, hoping they’d give up and go away, and additionally not wanting to do the same thing to them that others had done to us–make assumptions based on appearances. I’d already done just that–I’d assumed they were a couple when they first came up to us–and didn’t want to compound the problem.
What’s the first question you ask a new couple you just met?
“How long have you two been together?”
I said–and here’s where the big mistake was–“We’ve been married for nearly . . .” which greatly sparked their interest. Married? When? Where? How? And that’s when my being a transsexual came out. They were highly offended, told us I was a mutilated freak and not a real woman, and left for a minute, then came back with a couple of other members of their little club (they were all wearing matching leather jackets and caps, like a stereotypical biker gang), who seemed positively offended that Mrs. Six would lower herself to be with a freak like me. I was, (surprise, surprise) ready to cry, but Mrs. Six was more than holding her own:
Biker chick: Why would you want to be with this freak?
Mrs. Six: Ever had a thirty-second orgasm? I had one last night.
We were ready to leave, but the friends were standing behind our chairs, and were were overmatched should a physical confrontation have ocurred.
Then Steve showed up. Imagine if Jack from Will and Grace decided to stop being so conservative and dignified, and really come out of the closet, and you can get some idea about what Steve was like. He walks up through the biker chicks and sits down, completely ignoring them.
Steve: “Welcome, welcome, welcome ladies, we’re always glad to see some new faces in here!” (everything statement the man made for the next two hours ended with an exclamation point). “So what brings you here tonight?” At this point, he seemed to notice the women surrounding us for the the first time. He turned to the biker chicks and shooed them away, waving his hand at them, and they turned and walked away. “Don’t mind The Boys, they’re all bark and no bite!”
We were joined a few minutes later by another couple of gay guys and a couple of women who told us they were “fag hags”, and who seemed to have the “boys” glaring at them as much as they were at me and Mrs. Six. We spent the next couple of hours hanging out with Steve, the other guys, and the “fag hags”, dancing with each other, and I even danced with Steve (the only time I’ve ever danced with a man) a couple of times. I don’t think I could be comfortable dancing with a straight guy, but it was all right with Steve. I was surprised that he’d want to dance with me, but I guess that just goes to show that I’ve got some preconcieved notions to discard myself.
“The Boys” who had hit on us spent the entire time we were there sitting in a corner glaring at those of us who were actually enjoying ourselves, and seemingly made no effort to socialize or fit in with the group. The two who had come over the second time had girlfriends with them, and danced a couple of times, but always at the other end of the dance floor, and always returned to their little corner to continue glaring at the rest of the bar.
We met a bunch of other gay guys, and another lesbian couple (who were both somewhat androgynous) who were polite, but stayed mostly to themselves. There weren’t any other femme lesbians in the bar other than us and the girlfriends of The Boys, which made Mrs. Six later speculate that maybe The Boys tended to scare off the femme’s who went in there.
Despite the good time we had with the gay guys and the fag hags, the waves of hatred we could feel coming from “The Boys” and their girlfriends soured the experience for us.
We tried to go back once, because we liked Steve and his group so much, but saw the same motorcycles parked outside when we got there and decided we’d be more comfortable going to a movie.
We’ve since found another bar that’s more friendly, and go there once in a while, but while it’s less threatening, it’s also less fun because there’s nobody like Steve there.
It still perplexes me as to what exactly it is about us that bothered “The Boys”. It makes no sense to me that someone who had so thoroughly rejected normal sex roles as they did would be upset with me and Mrs. Six for doing the same thing.
I guess I’ll never understand it.
But it’s still nice to know that there are people like Steve out there, and we’re still friends with him.
[hijack]
Sounds like a porno movie to me…
[/hijack]
Anyhow, thank you all for answering my questions. Im going to be unable to devote much time to SDMB in the next couple days, so I guess I’ll be falling out of this thread. Thank you all. Now if anyone can just help me figure out what to wear…
and furthermore… I want a 30 second orgasm too!!! :o
I work in a profession that tends to value the contributions of men and women about equally, and primarily with regard to merit, rather than superficial factors. I’m not sure how it works in other professions.
In social situations involving activities dominated by one sex, the other sex seems to still get a little short changed. Male dominated activities can exclude or minimize the contribution of females from full participation, but female dominated activities do the same to males.
It’s hard to say. It’s discrimination when a woman gets her groceries carried out to the car, but a man in the same situation doesn’t, but who is being discriminated against? Is it the man who doesn’t get offered help, or the woman who’s assumed to need it? Or is it simply a practical difference based on differences in physical strength rather than sex? I’m not sure.
That said, I think the answer is that women still have a lot of ground to cover before we’ll be considered fully equal members of certain aspects of society, especially those related to power.
You know, I think I disagree with this. Hear me out - I can back it up (I think.) When most people talk about “power” they mean either earning capacity or political voice, and I’d agree that there men have an advantage. For now.
But think about this - women have fought successfully for the right to be in the workplace and in “non-traditional” jobs. We rarely even blink when we see a female doctor anymore, right? But… I often hear people use the term “male nurse” as though there’s something specifically female about being a nurse. AND - a woman who chooses to stay home and be a “housewife” may get flak from her peers who think she ought to be out working, but if a man chooses to be a “househusband” he’ll get no end of grief about it.
My brother and I got into a similar discussion about this. He was lamenting his life, and pointed to mine as an example of what he wanted to do. I’m in a very traditional-looking marriage. My husband works, I stay home. I have the freedom to pursue my hobbies and interests and I don’t HAVE to work for a living. If I choose to get a job, no one is going to give me grief about it; in fact, it would be celebrated by a lot of people. As noted in the transvestite thread, I can wear a dress (even if I feel silly in it) or trousers, and no one takes notice. NONE of this has anything to do with my strengths or weaknesses - it’s all allowed because I was born a female in this age. My husband (and my brother) wouldn’t have these options automatically if they wanted them. I got what is jokingly called an “Mrs Degree” that pretty automatically entitled me to be a stay-at-home wife and mom - if I accomplish nothing else in my life, it’s OK with the rest of the world. I can have a career if I want one. Guys kinda have to have one. Maybe as women continue to work to level the playing field in terms of earning capacity, it will be more “normal” for a guy to choose to be a stay-at-home partner while his wife supports him, but I think we’re a long way from that as an automatic option.
I’m not saying women don’t have it rough in some ways. I’m smaller than most guys, so as I said, I could be easy pickins for a predator (but said predator could be female, too.) I have occasionally had guys look at me in ways that make me uncomfortable, and I have had to remind people that it’s more polite to look in my eyes than down my blouse. We still have glass ceilings in some careers, but that’s gradually being overcome. Someone raised the point that women have had to fight to be considered equal, and that men can take it for granted that they’re in a position of power, but I think the tide is turning rather dramatically. Guys open doors for me as a matter of course, for the simple reason that I am a girl. If I open a door for a guy, it’s a nice gesture, but if I don’t, no one is going to call me out for it. I know I’m rambling (had a lot of coffee today) but I don’t think men have it very easy.
If I were… courting, or when I was courted by my ex-boyfriend (I’m kinda bisexual, but I prefer women), I told him I’m TS. Past may come to haunt you if you don’t. I just prefer telling him (or her) rtaher than someone else doing. This way I can do damage control if needed.
I’ve heard of something called “bigenderism”. And I’ve known people who won’t mind if they are considered men or women… Heck, I have a friend who keeps switching depending on its(?) mood, and let me tell you… that confuses me… a LOT. Ok, being hermaphrodite and really androginus helps it(?) a lot to pass on either mode, but not poor us!
Notnow If you have “embarrasing” questions, ask me… As I don’t mind being mailed (could build up some more defenses if needed) Here’s my mail marta_resa@hotmail.com Just please DON’T ADD ME TO MESSENGER. Hate that, and I’ll just add you to no-admission list.
SilverSerpentine : I’ve found normaly discriminated people tends to form ghettos… There are black ghettos, chinesse ghettos, hispanic ghettos… gay ghettos… So, no surprise there. While transitioning I was approached by this gay guy who told me “not to become a girl” (translated version, original words were “no te hagas tia”), cause if I… hum… transformed?.. yes, he said that… anyway… cause if I transformed he wouldn’t be able to lust me anymore… also, he said that since I was attracting him, there was no way I could be anything else but a gay… They also tried to kick me out of a GLB (not T this one, these guys were just oblivius to existance of trans people) cause “I was considering myself gay, then I had to move out” Hell… some of these guys are just too obtuse.
Were you talking about something like this when you said you feared a gay approaching you, Notnow? If so I’m afraid some people are just that way.
I agree with just about everything you say here, and the advantages you describe are among the things I enjoy about being a woman.
However, I would characterize what you are describing as issues of social freedom, not power. I also think there are parallels on the other side for many of your examples. I doubt there are many more female jackhammer operators, carpenters, high-rise construction workers, or welders than there are male nurses or elementary school teachers.
I’d also venture a guess than it tends to work just the opposite within the professions themselves. While society as a whole may think nurse=woman and welder=man, I suspect that a male nurse entering a previously all female nursing staff would be more accepted than a female high rise construction worker going to work at a previously all male site.
From personal experience, I know that when I was teaching kindergarten, there was some surprise to see a man wanting to do that, but there was also a lot of the “We need more men in the primary grades, it’s better for the profession” attitude. I doubt that there would be as many male construction workers thinking the same thing about their new female colleagues.
Much of this is because certain professions tend to be more attractive to one sex or the other. In a perfect egalitarian society, in which people were completely free of the risk of rejection within the profession and from societal pressure to fit into certain norms, I’d bet that the vast majority of kindergarten teachers would still be women and high rise construction workers would still be men. The numbers would be different, sure, but the general trend would be the same.
This is speculation on my part, of course.
I do think that our society has reached the point where it would be difficult to say in any general way which sex has it better/easier. We are much farther along than many others in this regard.
Imagine you’ve been offered a choice. You can choose to wake up tomorrow with a healthy, fit, attractive, 21-year-old version of your current body, and you get to choose your physical sex. I’d, obviously, choose female in a heartbeat. Mostly this is because that’s what I am, but a bit of it is that being female allows me to play the role in society that I want to play.
Now change one condition: You’re also going to be an Afgan. Despite everything I feel about my gender identity and all of the pain it caused me before my transisiton, I think I’d probably choose to be physically male, because the role of women in that society would offset the potential benefits.
It’s more about how the society fits you.
I’m in a good place, because the things that are still denied to women on the basis of sex are generally not things to which I aspire anyway. I don’t want political power, or to be the ceo of a fortune 500 company or to win the Indianapolis 500. I’m perfectly happy in a traditionally female job (or at least I will be when they finally open school again. Damn snow days).
But the woman who does want those things is going to have a much more difficult time than the man who wants to be a nurse.
I’m not claiming it’s easy for men, life is a difficult journey for us all, but I do think that the balance is still more in their favor.
sorry if this has been asked/answered/stated already, but number six how did mrs. six’s side of the family take the news?
congratulations! kaitlyn - such a beautiful name.
I agree with just about everything you say here, and the advantages you describe are among the things I enjoy about being a woman.
However, I would characterize what you are describing as issues of social freedom, not power. I also think there are parallels on the other side for many of your examples. I doubt there are many more female jackhammer operators, carpenters, high-rise construction workers, or welders than there are male nurses or elementary school teachers.
I’d also venture a guess than it tends to work just the opposite within the professions themselves. While society as a whole may think nurse=woman and welder=man, I suspect that a male nurse entering a previously all female nursing staff would be more accepted than a female high rise construction worker going to work at a previously all male site.
From personal experience, I know that when I was teaching kindergarten, there was some surprise to see a man wanting to do that, but there was also a lot of the “We need more men in the primary grades, it’s better for the profession” attitude. I doubt that there would be as many male construction workers thinking the same thing about their new female colleagues.
Much of this is because certain professions tend to be more attractive to one sex or the other. In a perfect egalitarian society, in which people were completely free of the risk of rejection within the profession and from societal pressure to fit into certain norms, I’d bet that the vast majority of kindergarten teachers would still be women and high rise construction workers would still be men. The numbers would be different, sure, but the general trend would be the same.
This is speculation on my part, of course.
I do think that our society has reached the point where it would be difficult to say in any general way which sex has it better/easier. We are much farther along than many others in this regard.
Imagine you’ve been offered a choice. You can choose to wake up tomorrow with a healthy, fit, attractive, 21-year-old version of your current body, and you get to choose your physical sex. I’d, obviously, choose female in a heartbeat. Mostly this is because that’s what I am, but a bit of it is that being female allows me to play the role in society that I want to play.
Now change one condition: You’re also going to be an Afgan. Despite everything I feel about my gender identity and all of the pain it caused me before my transisiton, I think I’d probably choose to be physically male, because the role of women in that society would offset the potential benefits.
It’s more about how the society fits you.
I’m in a good place, because the things that are still denied to women on the basis of sex are generally not things to which I aspire anyway. I don’t want political power, or to be the ceo of a fortune 500 company or to win the Indianapolis 500. I’m perfectly happy in a traditionally female job (or at least I will be when they finally open school again. Damn snow days).
But the woman who does want those things is going to have a much more difficult time than the man who wants to be a nurse.
I’m not claiming it’s easy for men, life is a difficult journey for us all, but I do think that the balance is still more in their favor.
Just kidding. Her mom was the first one we told, over a year before the others, because we knew she’d be the most open to it.
Her mom and I are closer, and get along better now than we ever did before. It’s her second chance to be a good mother and teach her new daughter the traditional ways that her first daughter didn’t want to learn.
I’ve been getting weekly lessons on how to be a proper wife from her ever since we told her, which is a lot of fun and always a bit of a challenge because her English is somewhat limited and my Korean is non-existent, and Mrs. Six refuses to translate (She’s your problem now, leave me out of it!).
Congratulations Kaitlyn (my daughter’s name is Caitlyn…it’s a lovely name :)).
You, and the other contributors to this thread, have fought a lot of ignorance by being so open and honest about your experiences and I thank you for that. I have actually learned a lot about not only transgenderism, but also about being a woman (and I have been one my whole life!).
Good luck in the future (and I’m waiting anxiously to know how your first day at school as Ms Kaitlyn went).
Two snow days in a row so far, and a two hour delay already announced for tomorrow. This means that they’re considering cancelling school, but they’re going to wait to see if the roads are clear. I won’t know tomorrow witll be the first day of my second teaching career until about 8:00.
When it happens, I’ll report back. It’s going to be a big day for me.
