Yet again, I attempt to convert my desktop to Linux

In My Humble Opinion
1

And once again, it’s not looking good.

Every year or two, I attempt to switch my desktop to Linux. And every time (so far), it’s lasted a couple weeks, maybe a month tops before I switch back to Windows in complete frustration.

For those who haven’t read my ramblings on the subject, I’m a huge Linux fan. I have a dozen Linux servers spread here and there, and I use it daily. Half of what I do on my Windows machine is through Cygwin, which means I’m practically accessing it as though it were Linux. I like Linux. A lot. I really want this switch to happen. But it hasn’t yet, and I don’t think it will this time.

It all comes down to the applications. Let’s enumerate:

Word: The OpenOffice version (Writer) just sucks. It’s embarassing how bad it sucks compared to Word. So far, I’ve opened 15 Word docs in Writer, and not one of them has been formatted exactly as the author intended. I haven’t had to write anything in Writer yet, but my past experience has been that it has 90% of what you want. Which means it’s great if you’re a basic user, but if you do anything a little advanced, it can’t handle it.

Excel: The OpenOffice version (Calc) just sucks. Same as above. It hasn’t been able to read 2 Excel files so far. And when I tried to do basic graphing, it couldn’t handle it. (Ok, it can do way-basic graphs, but that’s about it).

PowerPoint: Haven’t tried the OpenOffice version, and I’m not looking forward to it.

Outlook: My last attempt at this, Evolution was the best I could find and it was god-awful. This time around, there’s Thunderbird, which is a huge improvement. In fact, for just email, Thunderbird will do great. Unfortunately, there’s no calendaring or notes, which is a huge problem.

Palm Integration: In theory, this is there, but I haven’t figured it out yet. I’ve spent a few hours playing with things, and I’m sure I would’ve had it done on Windows already. But though I’m frustrated, I figure this one is doable.

File Manager: Nothing I’ve found compares to Windows Explorer. Konqueror seems to be the best so far (nautilus seems ok, but it has a couple annoying things like mandating every view opens a new window). Both of these do have the big advantage that they can handle sftp and smb operations, so that’s a big plus. But there’s no integration with other apps like email or the desktop, so the best you can do is copy files from remote to local, work with them, then copy them back.

Internet Explorer: I’ve moved for the most part to Firefox on Windows already, so this wasn’t a big switch. But it’s disappointing having to install media plugins that are pre-wired in IE.

mIRC: Nothing comes close. X-Chat is about the closest in features I can find, and it’s WAY behind. Maybe I’ll stick with irssi, which I occassionally use in SSH sessions. Fortunately, IRC isn’t a big need for me.

I haven’t even tried Quicken or Project yet. These have been total disasters in the past, so I’m not optimistic.

Oh, and Wine doesn’t mention anywhere even attempts or work-arounds for supporting Office 2003, so I don’t believe I’ll even try that route.

Wireless: As it turns out, I’ve done the wpa_supplicant thing and the ndiswrapper thing in another project, so this wasn’t too bad. But christ, there’s NO WAY a typical computer user could be expected to set this up on their own.

Hibernate: Out of the box, Fedora doesn’t support hibernate. Can you believe that? It’s frigging 2005 for christ sake. I still haven’t tackled this one.
So, things aren’t looking positive. Every time I see someone claiming that Linux is ready for the desktop I just shake my head. It’s the world’s greatest server; I would never use NT/IIS. But man, it’s just pain trying to be productive with it on the desktop. I’m hopeful this time it will stick, but it’s not looking good.

2

Even though I’ve totally removed Windows from my life (at least three years ago), I’m not going to try (too hard) to defend Linux, although I personally could never go back to an MS OS. Being in academia, not industry, I’ve never had issues with Word docs. Of course, that might have a lot to do with the fact that LaTeX is awesome for my needs. Although I understand where document compatibility might be a deal breaker for some people. Just out of curiosity, are you using OO 2.0 (1.95beta)?

Of course, let’s put the blame where it belongs for inter-application compatibility – lack of open standards, which Microsoft fights tooth and nail, are more responsible for most of your issues than anything else. (Are there still issues with proper formatting of documents between versions of MSOffice? If they can’t get it right, is it surprising that people with no access to the format can’t either?) Your other issues are similar, I think; if wireless manufacturerers released their specs, I don’t think there’d be an issue. (And what is “hibernate”? I’ve never heard of it.)

One other thing. “Not ready for the desktop” is way different than “not a Microsoft clone”. As I’m sure you realize, your issues are with the latter. I hope someday soon, for everyone’s sake, these issues are resolved. Until then, keep feeding the beast…

3

I feel your pain; I’ve done this myself several times and I’m certain that what we’re going through is in fact very common indeed.

I was recently quite pleasantly surprised by Ubuntu Linux (tagline: ‘Linux for human beings’) - installation is simple, configuration likewise and the installation of extra software is made a lot simpler by the Synaptic Package Manager - which really does all of the installation for you, no, really.
Comes bundled with OpenOffice (of which I think your criticisms are fair), GAIM, and a load of other stuff, including palmOS sync tools.

Disadvantage is that not all items of software you might want to install are available to Synaptic and installing these will be every bit as much fun as it is in any other distribution.

Best compromise at the moment, I think is to install dual-boot with WinXP (including the creation of a FAT32 partition to move files between the two - don’t try writing to NTFS from Linux) - I have my home machine and my office laptop set up this way (although I will confess that I don’t actually use Linux all that much.

4

I would love to get away from Outlook, but the calender/notes keeps me there too. And even if they add it to Thunderbird, there’s a nifty synch tool between Yahoo and Outlook (that even synchs calender/notes) that might still keep me on Outlook.

When there’s a good Outlook replacement that synchs easily to Yahoo, I’ll be all over that.

5

I used Linux as my sole desktop OS for probably five years. In the last two, I was using Gentoo, which I loved.

But I also had the added benefit of working for a corporation that had ported all of Office to Linux, and of being on Lotus Notes, of which there was a Linux version. After those two things came around, I felt no need to go back to Windows at all.

At my new company, it’s all Windows. It sucks. :frowning:

6

Bill, I would say you are the type of user that linux really won’t work well for. It is great for servers, and scientific applications. But as far as desktop office type stuff goes, it is only good enough for the average user who does not need to use those things in a professional capacity. Sorry about that.

Whenever I use Open Office, I always proof the created files in MS Office before sending them to anybody. Fortunately, I don’t have to do it often.

7

I’m a huge Linux fan, but my primary home computer is a Windows box. Linux simply isn’t ready to replace Windows in a lot of areas.

Regarding OpenOffice, however, there is hope for the future, now that Microsoft is going to start using XML for all Office files. XML is plain-text, so OpenOffice compatibility will be a cinch.

8

If having access to MS Office would make a difference, you might look into CrossOver. I’ve never used it myself, so I can’t say I recommend it.

Overall, my experience with Linux is about the same as yours. I like the concept, and I’m impressed with how far it’s come, but there are enough annoyances that I keep going back to Windows.

9

Color me scared. One or two people over the years have tried to convince me to go the Linux route, but I’ve always been scared off by the sheer amount of fiddling I knew I’d need to do to get stuff to work correctly together. One of my biggest grievances against Microsoft all these years is just that – trying to get stuff to work without tons of troubleshooting and messing around with various obscure settings.

Someday, somewhere, someone will invent a personal computer that is basically a glorified toaster. You plug it in, push the button, and voila – it works.

10

What’s wrong with Evolution?

And don’t ask me why I want to know.

11

That’s called a Mac. :slight_smile:

12

Heh, I KNEW that was coming. I’m just suprised it took so long. You been away from your computer? :slight_smile:

13

Why RJ, we’ve at last found common ground. So nice to hear you agree that the Mac is a glorified toaster.

14

I’m using Ubuntu on my desktop now, and it’s making me batty. I have zero coding experience. It was one of the bigger achievments in my life that I was able to adjust my screen resolution. I have been trying to raise then refresh rate above 60 for a week with zero results. I also miss Plug 'n Pray, I’ve had no luck installing my printer/scanner.

Of course, over on the Windows front, Service Pack 2 completely fucked up my laptop. I’ve lost all my peripherals, and now it won’t boot up.

In comparison, Ubuntu looks great!

15

Argh! there’s another ugliness I run into, namely the mouse settings (conveniently hidden in X11 config files). Not only is tap-to-click enabled by default, but the “edges” of the mouse pad do scrolling, so it’s very often that when I try to move the mouse, I end up going back to a previous web page in a browser. Hence, I lost my long post below! yay.

Digital Stimulus wrote

For me, being able to read docs that people send me is key. I get tons of resumes, and read tons of internal docs. Word and Excel are the standards, right or wrong. I’m using OO 2.0 1.9.125. But I’d be shocked if I found they’ve squeezed the massive amount of functionality I’m requiring between My version and the next.

I agree that standards are key, and that’s 100% the fault of MS. But it’s more than just compatibility. Raw functionality is sorely missing in OpenOffice. I’ve already run into 3 major things missing in the spreadsheet (graphs, page print formatting, historgrams) in only the first couple days. Yeah, it can kindof do these, but it’s like working with Office 95. It’s such a letdown to go from something that truly does everything I need to something I might be able to make do with.

Well, it is always true that peripheral vendors (whether software, hardware, seperate equipment or whatever) will spend their development dollars working with the market leader, and that’s MS. But the bottom line is that wireless was very painful to setup. For me, it was an interesting challenge. But I’m sure even reasonably technical people would have thrown up their hands over the whole thing.

This is an important feature for a laptop. Sleeping is where the machine shuts down everything except the memory so you can turn it off overnight and the next day it’s right where you left it. Hibernation is similar; the contents of memory are stored on the disk, and power is removed to everything, then the next day, memory is restored from the disk. Very important and readily available features on lap tops. The funny thing is this was available back in RH9, so I’m not sure why it’s not there in FC4. But none-the-less, it’s not and another little adventure I have to go on, just to be even with MS.

It’s actually both for me. Working to standards set (but not published) by Microsoft is a big problem, yes. But raw functionality is also missing. And for my money, it’s a lot of functionality missing.

16

TJVM wrote

Thanks. CrossOver is actually a commercialized version of Wine. Wine and CrossOver claim they run Office 2000 fine, but don’t even mention Office 2003, even with scary work-arounds. So, if it’s not even mentioned, I’m a bit scared.

Also, I’ve used Wine alot in the past, and though it is very useful, it was hard. very hard. Typically, there’s a big process of installing a given Windows program, and there’s always driver issues to resolve, and when it’s all said and done, it’s rare that the program runs perfectly. The big things that I really want to run on Wine (Office, Quicken are the biggest) are the hardest. In fact, that’s how CrossOver came into being, their big bragging point is about Office. But they don’t claim they can do Office 2003.

17

Robot Arm wrote

Lack of functionality. The big “value” of Evolution was that it’s GUI looked like Outlook. Which isn’t much of a value to me. In fairness, I haven’t used it in a couple years and I’m sure it’s improved. But back then, it wouldn’t do anything but the most basic emailing.

18

A couple months ago I switched my primary PC at home from Windows XP to Ubuntu Linux. I’ve been using Linux for over 10 years now and finally decided I’d had enough of being a slave to Microsoft, so I decided to scrap XP completely (well, except for my laptop, which dual-boots XP mostl so I can run my Garmin GPS mapping software). I didn’t have the problems Bill H. did, and here’s why:

Word/Excel/Powerpoint: Don’t use 'em, don’t need 'em.

Outlook: I use Thunderbird for e-mail, which I love, and have never used Outlook at all. I have no need for a calendar or “notes” application and I’m not even really sure what they do.

Palm integration: I can back up my PalmOS-based phone to Kpilot, giving me access to all the information stored therein, and that’s all I really need.

File manager: Konqueror is good enough for me once I get it tweaked out the way I like. I do most of my file management stuff from a command line anyway.

mIRC: I almost never use IRC. I haven’t needed it since I installed Linux. I do occasionally find some reason to wander into an IRC chat, but if I do, I can probably get by with the IRC functionality of GAIM.

Quicken/Project: Don’t need 'em (what is Project, anyway?)

Wireless: *iwconfig is my friend.

Hibernate: People use that? Seriously? I just leave my PC on 24/7. In fact, I go to a fair amount of trouble to disable all the stupid power management stuff when I’m working with Windoze.

19

I’m sure that you’re right about the functionality. I was just curious, since I haven’t gone near Office in over three years and Calc is notoriously the weakest part of OO. As to the other – it seems like until people realize that MS is a hindrance and stop using their formats as the standard, you’re stuck. Which is exactly how MS wants it. I actually see MS as viral, not the GPL. It’s exactly the problem you describe; people infect others with the need for MS software to the detriment of their wallet (and the benefit of the MS bottomline). It’s the sneakiest and most fit type of virus, where the host doesn’t even realize they’re infected.

As for the other things, I wonder how much of it is just specific glitches. In my lab, we’ve never had a problem with wireless setup (granted, we had to be careful about which card we bought). One of our laptops is part of a mobile robot system that never gets turned off; hibernate (I thought it was the name of an application) does indeed work (for us) in FC4. Maybe we’re just lucky.

I realize it was just a turn of phrase, but – yes. How much does your Linux setup cost? And how much does your MS setup cost?

20

Digital Stimulus wrote

Sadly, reading this sentence made me skip a bit with optimism. Calc is the one I’ve used the most so far, so maybe, just maybe the others are better!

Well, I’m on your side; I want standards, and I want to be on an open-source platform. But there’s another aspect to the MS virus, and that is that the Office product is damn good. So, yeah they’ve taken full advantage of their elephantine size and have twisted the market to their needs, but at the same time people buy Office because it does things they need that others don’t.

Perhaps some cards are auto-detected and I was unlucky. However, this is generally my experience with Linux peripherals. Another example is the HP printer I put onto a Linux server in my house. What a nightmare. Yes, the reason it’s a nightmare is because HP spent all their bucks on making it easy for Windows users and didn’t haven’t anything left over for us Linux types. But still, the bottom line is that there’s always a few subsystems in a Linux install that aren’t easy.

So, yes I agree these are probably glitches. But the average glitch rate is way higher with Linux.

That’s funny, I don’t see anything in any of the menus, and I could’ve sworn I saw something in the release notes about it not being available. I’ll have to re-look.

Good point. You do get what you pay for.

On the other hand… I’m lucky in that my time is worth a fair amount per hour, so actually, this has been far more expensive for me than going with Microsoft. Fortunately, I enjoy it.