An incident at a recent little league game sparked a discussion at lunch the other day:
There’s a runner on first. The batter hits a ground ball, so the runner starts advancing towards second base. One of the fielders picks up the ball and throws the batter-runner out at first base. Meanwhile, the runner from first - who has not yet touched second base - for some reason starts back to first. If the first baseman does not tag the runner, can he safely go back to first base (since the force was already removed)? Does it make a difference if the runner had already advanced safely to second base?
The runner can go anywhere he wants, second or first, regardless of whether or not he’s touched second. The only thing a baserunner cannot do is pass another baserunner, or occupy the same base at the same time as another runner.
I think he can. I know that they can no longer get a ‘force’ out on him by touching second base, that they must get him out by tagging him. This would imply that the runner is no longer forced to go to second base, and can therefore go back to first.
I also think that if he’s already touched second and decides to go to back to first for some odd reason, he’d have to touch second again on the way back.
The runner can indeed go back to first base, but note that if he has already rounded second he must touch second again on his way back. (Of course, in such a case, it would seem rather silly for the runner, already safe at second, to go back to first. . . .)
I took a course and am a certified little league umpire, I’ll admit it was 10 years ago when I took the course, but this sounds fishy.
Are you guys sure he can go back to first? LordVor what do you mean by they can no longer ‘force’ him out by touching second?
It should still be a force play. What if they threw the ball to second in the first place? He would be out, even though the hitter has not reached first base.
In your case KVS I belive the the batter would be out, and to get the runner on first out all they would have to do is either tag him if he was standing on first, or throw the ball to second and step on the base.
No, I agree that when the batter-runner is erased (put out) first base becomes free for the runner to return. But he’s got to stay in the basepaths and touch any bases he’s previously touched.
Did anybody see the clip from the Giants-Diamondbacks game last night? Unbelievable.
He’s out by force at second. If the batter has been tagged out, there is no longer a force - first base will not be occupied, and the runner can go where he pleases. Same reason a tag is necessary.
One of the most famous examples in the big leagues of the OP occurred in the 9th inning of Game 7 of the World Series. With Mickey Mantle on 1st base with one out and the Yankees trailing the Pirates 9-8, Yogi Berra grounded out to first baseman Rocky Nelson, who stepped on first for the second out. Nelson was expecting to turn to throw to second to retire Mantle, but Mantle had already dived back into first base. Meanwhile, Gil McDougald on third base came in to score the tying run.
Rule 7.08(i)
Any runner is out when, after he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall call “Time” and declare the runner out …
This rule wouldn’t apply to a runner returning to first if the force was removed.
While Schaefer may have been an inspiration for the rule, the rule itself was not adopted until 1920 and Schaefer had not been playing for several years and had in fact died the year before.
I mean just that. According to the rules of baseball, if you start a double play by getting out the batter, you cannot get the guy who was on first out by tagging second, and your opinion on the matter doesn’t enter the situation.
This is why, when a double-play oportunity is hit to a Major League first baseman, he’ll almost always throw to second for the first out instead of touching first base himself and then throwing to second.
A 8-10 year old runner thinks he is out and should go back to the bench, but he’s not out yet. Coaches and parents start yelling for him to run and the other side to tag him out.
We’re treated to about one minute of the two players running around chased each other.
However, Schaeffer is directly responsible for the rule stating that World Series payments to players is determined by the gate of the first four games regardless of ties. Just before the 1907 series, Schaeffer asked what would happen if one of the four games was a tie. League officials – who considered such a result unlikely – ruled that the gate from the tied game would go into the player pool along with the gate from the other four games.
Sure enough, the first game of the series ended in a tie. The players got a nice little bonus, and the rules were changed.
