Yeah, I may have my scaling off. It was probably less than a few hundred meters. And again, no one has heard of proximity fuses in Star Wars? When the supposed 190 megaton missile gets a few meters behind the target, it could always explode and destroy it there…
Yes, but does it really matter how easily it can destroy an undefended planet? Big deal. It parks itself in orbit and tells the gunners to have a field day.
The inconcistency is that both are apparently “concussion missiles” carry a payloud from insufficient to topple a statue to 190 megatons. Books like the X-Wing series make a big difference between concussion missiles and proton torps. Torps are far more powerful than concussion misiles, which are generally only sufficient to take out fighters. And last, of course, games like XvT have concussion missiles that aren’t powerful enough to take out a fully shielded fighter.
Tough. The movies are above the books on the canon scale. There was nothing indicating a time lapse in the movie, and a later statement by a book doesn’t trump the movies.
Yeah, I did point out that the rebel ships closed with the Imperials… my point was that it was in the last few minutes of the battle, and their shields were hardly “strained.” Unless, of course, Imperial shields are only designed to last five minute in a capital ship engagement.
Sure, it could have coincided, but the movie clearly intended to show that it was far more than coincidence. I have a Star Wars technical manual that describes those domes as shield generators. I’ve seen another one describing them as sensor domes. There’s another example of the conflicts… which one is canon when they contradict each other?
Please. Why on earth would they go to a deep interior shot for the missile hit, and a point right beneath the surface for the impact?
It is indeed all in the numbers. But I say your numbers are calculated wrong… to be in the best interest of Star Wars. For example, let me cite my former example of the Star Destroyer rammed by the unfinished Mon Cal cruiser. You’re talking about a ship at a relatively low speed moving and lower mass than the Star Destroyer, yet destroying it utterly. Again, quite a bit of inconsistency. There isn’t enough data for shield calculations in the movies, so it’s all what you read from the books. Except… which books, hmm?
Ugh. I hated Insurrection. But let’s go to First Contact, and watch the Enterprise zipping about the cube and drawing fire and coming about for more passes. Then let’s go to Nemesis and watch the engagement with the Scimitar, where it moves much more nimbly than in Insurrection. Two examples vs. one. I think the “Briar Patch” slowed them down a lot (Geordi said they couldn’t risk more impulse power in the patch without being torn apart), after all.
Besides, we’re talking about a comparison to an Imperial Star Destroyer. Pig wallowing in the mud is a descriptor better described to which of the two?
I think all the Star Wars fans are just jealeous that when they get special editions they get Greedo shooting first (at 45 degree angles) and when we get special editions we get freaky Vulcan statues.
Back to the asteroids in ESB, the dialog explicitly states the star destroyers suffered severe damage.
Just before Vader talks to the Emperor.
Needa "and that Lord Vader was the last time they appeared on any of our
scopes, considering the amount of damage we’ve sustained they
(the falcon) must have been destroyed.".
Now, I haven’t read any of the books, but my old roomate had, and he spoke of an instance in one of the Rogue Squadron books where , in order to take out a Star Destroyer, a huge fleet of X-Wings fired a volley of around 60 torpeedos or so to disable the shields, and fired another volley almost immediately afterwards so as to hit the ship before the shields popped back up. 1) What were the exact number of X-Wings + torpeedos fired, 2) how quickly do imperial shields pop back up, and 3) roughly how many X-Wings/torpeedos would be needed to take out the shields of the E-E?
Well, I’ve read (and own) the X-Wing books featuring Rogue Squadron taking out any number of star destoyers. Which one were you referring to? Off of the top of my head, I remember them taking out the Corrupter, a Victory class Star Destroyer (the older and smaller type), but that was with the help of an old war cruiser. But I’m almost certain they took out at least one more with the X-Wings alone. That would mean there were twelve X-Wings with six torpedoes apiece. Given that they each fire two torpedoes in a salvo, that would place each one at 24 missiles, with the first salvo being sufficient to collapse the shields.
Also, in the battle to take out the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya (spelling?), they used a fleet of freighters firing missiles for the first salvo. 80 warheads took out the bow shield of the SSD, and turned the nose of the ship into a lump of slag.
And this is mere anecdotal evidence, but I’ve played games in X-Wing vs. TIE fighter where the goal was to take out an ISD with just one or two squadrons, and I’ve done it. I’m only a “good” pilot in those games, not an excellent one.
As for your number two, imperial shields tend to go down for the duration of the battle. I can’t think of any instances where shields went down and came back up again to save the ship.
For your number three… the X-Wings would be fried upon approaching the Big E. Ranges tend to be longer for Federation ships. However, if the torpedoes were fired off, Spoofe would tell you how their torpedoes are at least three times as powerful as photon torpedoes, though I disagree <grin>. But a squadron firing 24 torpedoes, even if they aren’t all that powerful, would probably take out even the Enterprise.
Well, while waiting for Spoofe to put in an appearence and hit with a new round of responses, I have some new data to contribute from Star Trek VI, which I just watched again.
The Klingon Chancellor’s Ship, Kronos One, survives two direct torpedo hits to the unshielded hull. It loses gravitational and thruster control, but recovers within several minutes.
Conclusion: Very strong hull armor on the Klingon ship.
The Enterprise is repetedly hit with torpedoes from the cloaked prototype while going to Khitomer. One torpedo even blows right through the entire saucer section, after shields are overcome.
Conclusion: Federation hull armor isn’t quite as strong as Klingon hull armor, but still pretty damned strong.
It takes five torpedoes (the original modified torpedo + two each from Enterprise and Excelsior) to destroy an unshielded Bird of Prey. That’s a pretty small ship (about 100 meters with only three dozen crew at most), a prototype, and designed never to be hit. Yet it still takes 5 torpedoes to knock it out.
Conclusion: Star Trek Universe ships are designed to take a beating even without shields.
And remember this is the Constitution class Enterprise, not the Sovereign class, a few generations later.
Conclusion: The Enterprise would wipe the floor with the ISD (if there was a floor in space, that is).
As a side note, put Kirk in command of the E-E, and it gets even more one-sided. I have great respect for Picard, but when it comes to fighting a battle, Kirk trumps Picard by a large margin.
We’ve also seen that collissions, even small ones, can destroy a ship rather easily. I don’t know the episode’s name, but there’s that Next Generation ep. where the ship comes out of the temporal rift, hits the Enterprise, and it just spins out of control and explodes. Several times over, in fact. Also, in DS9, we get the Dominion crashing their fighters into Federation cap ships and putting them down really easily. Talk about how tough they are, but one A-Wing to the bridge, and the bitch is going down.
Plus, haven’t there been plenty of shots where one well placed torp could blow a ship up? I think a lot depends on where the ship is hit to determine exactly how strong the armor and shields are. The first four torpedos may have simply damaged the ship, but I’m sure if they got that hit to the bridge off first, it’d be a whole different story.
To put it simply, collisions suck big time for all parties involved. Doesn’t matter whether it’s the Enterprise or the ISD, they both get destroyed. By the way, you’re thinking of the episode “Cause and Effecto,” where the Enterprise is trapped in a time loop for 17 days. Another ship keeps appearing from nowhere (thrown forward in time) and colliding with the Enterprise when it’s totally unprepared for impact.
Offhand, I can’t recall any “single torpedo” destructions of a ship. A Federation warship that is… an unmanned ore freighter was once destroyed with a torpedo in the original series. But in Star Trek VI, the first torpedo was to the bridge. The ship survived just fine until the second volley hit.
:smack: You are correct. I got the first and second confused.
That’s where Mike got it, too. He has the screenshot proof that the SD tower was largely intact. I was rather shocked myself.
You assume they could scramble enough of them fast enough and could keep up with the Falcon. Solo was flying like a madman (and a very skilled madman).
The “shield dome” tecnhical manual has been shown to be incorrect. The latest and greatest clearly contradicts it.
Yes. Just like a bullet traveling at only less than sonic speeds will easily frag my skull…
I realize this is utterly imnpossible. Psi Cop will not agree with me, nor I with him.
Well, yeah. But I was mainly making my point about why the captain was concerned about damage to his destroyer and not the TIEs. I was speaking about a search pattern, which Vader had ordered, not an all out pursuit (already futile by that point).
Really? What’s the latest and greatest? I paid a visit to the local Barnes and Noble and found a book called “The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels” that clearly showed the domes on top as being shield generators. I also found two other tech manuals that confirmed the domes were generators. I didn’t find a single one that said they weren’t. The “Essential Guide” was brand new and shiny… I didn’t note the date, but it couldn’t have been printed any more than a year ago. I still say they’re shield domes.
I think that you’re misunderstanding the point I’m arguing. I have been saying all along that kinetic energy is far more devestating than radiated energy to ships and shields. Spoofe posted a link to a comic book picture that showed an SSD surviving the simultaneous impact of three ISDs and come out unscratched. I posted that reference as something from higher up the “canon” scale that showed a fully shielded ISD getting destroyed utterly from a “ram.” All along, I’ve been trying to show ramming is devestating. Juts like that bullet example.
Most likely true <grin>. But I find it fun… and I presume that you get at least some entertainment value from it, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting. But mainly I’m exchanging massive informational volleys with Spoofe because he seems to like it as much as I do. I actually like Star Wars, and I’m very greatful for it. While TOS was first, Star Wars made science fiction a lot more “liked” by the mainstream public, and probably enabled shows like TNG and Babylon 5 to air. That’s a benefit that can never be overridden by how horrible “Phantom Menace” is. I realize that sometimes the “playful” tone of voice doesn’t come through in my points and counterpoints, but I really do intend everything as lighthearted. But even so… the E can trash an ISD <whistle>.
I don’t know if it helps with the canon debate over whether or not their shield generators, but in the card game, the domes are labeled “Shield Generators.” One of the few cards I seemed to find in abundance (sure beats having any of those darned “Jedi” cards, rassmfrassmebadluckpieceof…)
Just out of curiosity, what’s the size difference between and ISD and the Enterprise E? Could the EE dock inside an ISD, or are they pretty much size compatable (somehow, I seriously doubt it, but I’m just curious).
To put those statistics both in the same units, an ISD is about 1600 meters long versus the 680 meters of the Enterprise. So not a chance that the E could dock inside the ISD (it’s also far too tall), yet the ISD clearly dwarfs the Enterprise in terms of sheer scale. Again, I direct people to this website: Daystrom Institute Technical Library. The Soverign Class (Federation) ship is what you’re looking for. Anything in yellow text is canon. Green text is backstage. White text is likely but not verified. Very useful sight. Just as a rundown for the Enterprise:
Phasers: 16x Type XII phaser arrays
Quantum Torpedoes: 1x rapid fire tube forward of the deflector dish, capable of firing 5 rounds per second
Photon Torpedoes: 10x tubes, burst fire (backstage info: each is capable of firing 12 round bursts)
Note, if you actually look at the site, you should reference the “enhanced” statistics from further down the page.
Just letting everyone know that I haven’t lost track of this thread. However, a typical response has, so far, taken over an hour to compose, and I haven’t had a free hour all week.
Heh. Glad to hear. I was starting to wonder if you were bored with the thread or something. It’s been sort of limping along for quite some time, not quite dying <grin>. I eagerly await your next salvo.
Nope, doesn’t work. We have no idea how much time passed between the Falcon entering the asteroid and when Leia first noticed the Mynocks. Remember, there’s a scene where Admiral Piett tells Vader that they’ve scoured the entirety of the asteroid field but haven’t found the Falcon. Now, I don’t know about you, but that field looked BIG. How long do you think it would take to undertake a thorough enough search to make the conclusion that the Falcon was gone?
You’re misremembering the timeframe of the movie. After leaving the asteroid, Han was quite sure that the hyperdrive was fixed (and, indeed, it probably was… it may have just gotten damaged again after taking a few hits from the Avenger). When the hyperdrive failed to function, THEN Han made his near-suicide run-and-hide on the Star Destroyer.
That’s one of the prevailing theories about how Han & Co. got from the Hoth system to the Anoat system. However, the fact still remains that Han was convinced that he had already repaired the hyperdrive before leaving the asteroid.
Visually. A lot of the asteroids had a very faint reddish tint to them, indicating a significant content of iron. Furthermore, in “Dengar’s Tale” in the anthology Tales of the Bounty Hunters, page 102, it says this about the asteroids in the Hoth system:
“Rocks the size of his ship hurtled toward him, and they weren’t the soft carbonaceous chondrites that his weapon might punch a hole through-these were nickel-iron rocks that could smash him to pieces.”
Not true. I was being conservative and assuming the densest known asteroid composition, to give the Enterprise crew the benefit of the doubt.
Umm… because we… y’know… saw it hit the command tower.
Except the Captain didn’t go down. He flinched away from some bright flash, but remained perfectly fine otherwise.
As I mentioned, we quite plainly saw the asteroid hit the Star Destroyer’s command tower.
Don’t know. It also seems quite odd that they’d drop the shields for a holographic transmission when an audio transmission would, presumably, do the trick. I guess Vader felt that his ability to inspire fear in his subordinates, visually, was more important than an extra layer of safety.
Red herring. We saw quite clearly that the asteroids were moving at less than twenty meters per second on impact.
Another red herring. At the time, the TIE pilots were chasing the Falcon… and had to maintain a high speed to keep up. Later, while scouring the asteroid field, we saw that the TIE’s were maintaining a quite liesurely pace through the field… but, as you said, a tiny object moving at fast enough speeds would be decimated. And that asteroid field was VERY active. After a time, attrition would start to take its toll.
When they need their TIE fighters to find their quarry. I thought I covered this.
They needed to find the Falcon and they needed to find it fast. If all their fighters and shuttles get destroyed, that would greatly lower their chances of finging the ship in a timely manner, which would, in turn, greatly increase the chances that Vader loses his temper. Seems like a reasonable risk to me.
Another red herring. The simple fact that some other pilot is much more skilled than you does not mean you’re incompetent.
Han had no idea how long repairs would take, nor did he have a chance to set up any sort of piggyback. This is hardly a strong criticism… you’re assuming that Han had a foreknowledge of what was going to happen in the rest of the movie.
Except the ESB novelisation mentions that ALL the ships in the asteroid belt were hit by asteroids… asteroids that struck with “multi-megaton” force.
ANH, where Luke’s blaster fire vaporized a huge area on the Death Star’s hull; the assumption that TIE’s and X-wings have a rough parity of weapon strengths; backed up by sourcebooks that put starfighter-level weaponry in the kiloton range (at maximum setting).
A misrepresentation. I get my weapons calcs from the asteroid vaporization scenes, sourcebooks, and the aforementioned ANH scene… and I get my shield calcs also from sourcebooks, and extrapolation from the weapons calcs. A quite logical analysis, in my opinion.
Pretty much.
The sucker had just undergone a multi-teraton bombardment from a dozen heavy Rebel cruisers. Its shields had already started to fail. So no, I see no contradiction in the Executor’s inability to support itself.
Note: The Executor’s hull seemed to be signicantly stronger than the surface of the Death Star, judged by the fact that the Executor didn’t fold up like a piece of paper upon impact. This indicates that it had at least some system in place to increase its hull strength… the remainder of its shields, perhaps.
In any case, that’s hardly a contradiction of the scene in the comic book.
Point 1: A VSD is 900 meters long, and an Interdictor is 600 (or 700, I don’t remember) meters long. Neither of them are REMOTELY the size of a SSD or an ISD.
Point 2: Any idea how fast the two ships were moving? As we saw in ROTJ, when the Imperial fleet rounded Endor in less than two minutes, Imperial vessels can achieve accelerations of many hundreds, if not thousands, of G’s. The two ships may have been travelling at near-relativistic velocities.
And that ship travelled from orbit around the planet to the planet’s moon in less than a minute. It would have had to achieve speeds of thousands of kilometers per second in order to accomplish this. Still not a contradiction.
Feel free to mention 'em.
Feel free to calculate the kinetic energy of the ramming ships. I’m not going to do your work for you.
Furthermore, it’s quite well known that, in SW, there are two separate shield systems to handle physical impacts and energy attacks. Such is not the case with Star Trek, which is why ramming instances ARE valid to introduce as an indicator as to shield strengths.
Rather, the Imperial fleet was very sloppy and careless in how they treated the Rebel fleet - after all, they outnumbered the Rebels ten thousand to one - and the Rebels simply took advantage of that.
You ever hear of the Vietnam War?
Except in instances where the TIE’s are needed to scour an asteroid field in a timely fashion.
OR if you think that losing your smaller ships would increase the time it took to search the asteroid field tenfold, thus raising the Dark Lord’s ire.
Actually, we had ONE shot. And that shot lasted just a few seconds. And they were Bombers, which were structurally stronger than standard TIE’s. And the formation consisted of two whole ships.
Uh… no offense, but it’s starting to seem like you’re not putting much effort into these criticisms.
The Falcon also had numerous close calls, and actually got hit by several asteroids as it went through the field. Only its shields saved it from destruction. “That was no laser blast, something hit us!”
Consider your point disregarded. Check out the topmost image on this page.
Because use of the holonet requires specialized and extensive equipment. I’m not claiming that the asteroid impact had NO damage… just that it didn’t completely destroy the bridge tower.
Of course, it could also be speculated that a panicked crewman accidently pressed the “Off” button…
A missile of such a high yield was obviously not meant to go after fighters.
In the middle of an asteroid belt*? Are you mad?
*Ignoring the whole problems of finding such asteroids in the “rings” of a planet… there should’ve been nothing but dust and maybe, MAYBE, a few boulders… Geonosis must’ve had a recently destroyed celestial body in its orbit.
No shockwave in a vacuum. Just a big burst of heat, light, and several other forms of radiation.
At that point in the chase, Jango had ceased his energy attack for almost a minute… plenty of time for Obi-wan’s fighter to recharge its shields to protect against gamma rays and heat.
Can’t hit the Tantive IV? Did you forget the part of the movie where they said they were trying to CAPTURE the ship, not destroy it? And they couldn’t use Ion cannons… those would have likely erased any data that the ship had, and then they’d have no idea if the plans had ever been aboard or not.
Watch the movie again. The accuracy rates for the Imperials were actually quite high. I saw one estimate that put it around 95% hit rate.
The Picard Maneuver is supposedly effective because it creates two images of a ship’s presence, due to the warping ship travelling faster than light. Not only is the ship’s computer - and its crew - too stupid to realize that the NEWER image is the true image, BUT the Enterprise supposedly has sensors that work at faster-than-light speeds… which SHOULD render such a maneuver useless.
However, the Picard Maneuver was STILL extremely threatening to the Enterprise crew. This indicates A: an amazing amount of stupidity on the part of the ship’s officers, B: really, REALLY poor combat computers, and C: poor resolution for their FTL sensors.
They have a better range in some instances. In others, they are utterly inempt. I’m not going to repeat my examples above.
Of course. Kinda like how it so easily detected the Pegasus in an asteroid belt, right?
The fact that it was only 12 lightyears of space is the important part. In two days, the Enterprise can travel that entire distance. This indicates that in those situations, the Enterprise’s scanning range was not significantly better than simply “looking out a window”.
Red herring. I never claimed that a Star Destroyer’s sensor capabilites were “better”… just that the Enterprise’s capabilities were not nearly as great as you expounded.
Yup. And “warp strafing” was not used in any one of those incidents. You’d think that it’d be the FIRST tactic that they think of.
Furthermore, in numerous other attacks on stationary targets - such as defensive stations above Cardassia - warp strafing was not used.
So? You’d think that moving faster than light would be a huge advantage when attacking a vessel moving slower than light.
Cite a single instance where an ISD was remaining stationary while attacking a target. Conversely, I will cite Yesterday’s Enterprise, where the Enterprise-D wallowed like a stuck pig when under attack from two Klingon Birds of Prey. Then there’s Generations, where the Enterprise-D retreated from yet another BoP at less than 100 meters per second… and then Insurrection where the Enterprise-E ran from two weaker ships (after firing only two shots, no less!) at similar velocites. 'Course, its performance in First Contact was quite impressive.
And I counter with this. Please point out on that page where it says that the Star Trek tech manuals have any sort of canon or official status.
So because ONE missile doesn’t have a proximity fuse, NONE of them do? Prox fuses are mentioned numerous times in the X-wing novels.
Yes, because the EXTENT at which a planet is destroyed is what matters. It yields yet another source for calcs (and, indeed, is the basis for the estimation of the 200 gigaton number).
“Different yields” are not an inconsistency. I already explained this… Wedge wanted as little collateral damage as possible, and as such would have armed his fighters with light weaponry. Conversely, Jango Fett wanted to be prepared for anything, up to and including an attack from a much stronger ship… which is why he had much stronger weapons.
There’s nothing in the X-wing books that says that proton torpedoes are inherently stronger than concussion missiles.
And the Games are on the lowest rung of the canonicity ladder, and are contradicted by the movies, novels, and manuals.
Nothing to indicate? How about a cut between scenes? That alone is enough to show the passage of time.
Using your logic, we can conclude that Obi-wan Kenobi is capable of instantaneous transportation because, in ANH, we saw Luke, Obi-wan, and Co. travelling along the desert, and then an instant later we see them standing, overlooking Mos Eisley.
Then there’s a scene in ROTJ, after Han tricks the Imperials into leaving the bunker on Endor, only to be ambushed by Chewie’s AT-ST and a huge group of Ewoks. Han shrugs, and then, a millisecond later, he’s saying “Throw me another charge!” Can Han Solo teleport about at will?
Of course not.
A cut in a scene can denote the passage of time. It’s a common film tool. Ergo, there is ample ability for us to assume that more time passed in the actual Endor battle than was shown on screen, INCLUDING the Rebel fleet focusing its firepower on the Executor.
“The last few minutes”? Where do you get that idea? We have no idea how long that battle really lasted. It may have been twenty minutes, it may have been an hour or more.
I’m not understanding your point here. How do you “design” a shield to last a certain amount of TIME? Will they last five minutes from continual bombardment from both exaton-level weaponry as well as a pen light? Shields are designed to withstand a certain amount of ENERGY. The Rebel ships were clearly capable of delivering that amount of energy to their targets. They were losing ships left and right, however… because Imperial weaponry was stronger ('course, the Mon Cal ships had better shields than the Imperial ships, so it worked out in the end…)
Clearly? I disagree. In my opinion, the movie clearly intended to show that a significant attack that breached the Executor’s shields clued the frantic officer to the fact that its shields had fallen.
Whichever makes more sense, logically. Another source points out that, when shields fail on a capital ship, it causes the shield generators to burn out… and the burnt-out shield generator must be replaced before shields can be brought up again. These replacements are often done in the middle of a combat engagement.
Tell me… how can you replace a generator, on the fly, when the generators are outside your ship?
What a misrepresentation of my words. I said nothing about a “deep interior shot”. I just said that there’s no reason to assume that those shots immediately following the proton torpedo strike were directly underneath that tiny section of hull where the proton torpedo penetrated. You saw the explosion of the impact on the outside of the Death Star… the blast was many times larger than an X-wing itself. Yet, inside the Death Star, the internal explosions were barely large enough to stun a stormtrooper. Clearly, those internal shots were taken near the very outer perimeter of the explosion’s area of effect.
And I say they are not. Furthermore, they are backed up by official evidence that is clearly and explicitly stated. There is no denying that the Episode II ICS says “200 gigatons”. There is no denying that it gives us shield strengths capable of repelling 16 teratons per second. Those are NOT CALCS. Those are cold, hard numbers.
Furthermore… if you wish to challenge the calcs, do so. Don’t bring in ad hominem attacks by saying that the authors of those calcs are biased.
Already addressed. You figure out the speed that the cruiser was travelling, and then calculate the kinetic energy, and THEN tell me that there’s a contradiction.
Until then, your lack of numbers doesn’t counter a thing.
Who didn’t?
It’s nimble, but it’s also a big target. And, again, it lacks the power to punch through an ISD’s shields, yet all the ISD needs is one glancing hit from its heavy weapons to end the fight (or just a few hits from its medium or small weapons).
I still don’t understand how people can’t understand that the Enterprise is just so significantly outclassed in this. Like pitting an Abrams tank against a tricycle.
As for the E-E stats, Psi Cop, I don’t know what page you were reading, but it lists this for the Sovereign’s weapon loadout:
12 x Type XII phaser arrays
1 x Rapid fire quantum torpedo tube
4 x photon torpedo tubes torpedoes total
Of course, I deleted all the “speculation” bullshit that Graham Kennedy put in there (such as the 85,000 terawatt number for the phasers). Note that the vast majority of information he provides is his own wankfest invention and has no basis in any episode, movie, or tech manual.
At least guys like Mike Wong and Curtis Saxton have official SW evidence from which to derive their information. Graham Kennedy believes that a single Federation ship can wipe out the Empire.
Check out the topmost image on