Yet Another "Gay Sex and the Bible" Thread

actually, IIRC, the bible only states " man shall not lay with man as with woman". so, lesbian sex is ok acording to that passage of the bible. I will not get into the rest of my opinion on the bible, and it’s historic context. but I gotta agree with those that said that it is kinda funny how people will pick out things that they want and avoid the things that are inconvienient to thier view. for example, the bible in Lev. says that we should stone peopel for certain offenses. don’t see that sentence nowadays so you?

as to the OP, I actually have a gay friend who is a devout catholic. how he does it I have no idea. he admits to being gay, hangs out in gay bars, does not preach, but every sunday he is in church confessing all the sins fo the night before. guess that confession is good for the soul bit does it for him.

I would like to believe that christians would take other parts of the bible to heart, even those in the new testament, like the part where jesus took in the harlots and the other sinners. but, alas, most are so busy focusing on the mote in their brother’s eye and missing the plank in their own eye.

dctaz- one question, did Jesus take in the harlots & other sinners to re-affirm them in their sinfulness? Would he have OKd Matthew & Zacchaeus go back to being extortionist publicans, the woman he saved from stoning going back to sleeping around?

On the issue of gay civil unions, I’m not necessarily opposed to them (tho they won’t be “marriages”, even if that’s the name given to them by gov’t)- BUT will some who oppose same-sex intimacy be mandated to treat such unions as legit? Yeah, if they are business-owners or insurance-suppliers or civil servants (when Vermont began recognizing gay civil unions, several county officials objected that registering such unions would violate their personal convictions- I don’t know how that was ever resolved.)

Also, there are indeed some gays who do seek to force recognition from anti-gay-sex religionists. The Tufts Christian
Fellowship at Tufts University had to face such a challenge in 2003 (the University first pulled its recognition when it barred a openly lesbian member from seeking office, only to reinstate it later when challenged.)

Ah, but should we also stone all those that work on the sabbath as it says in the bible? and which sabbath do we use? the jewish (saturday) or the christian (sunday)? do we kill those that wear cotton/polly blends? do we stone those who blashpheme the lord? do we shun women durring that time of the month? do you like that lobster every once in a while when you can afford it? it doesn’t have scales or fins, so is an afront to the lord. do you have servants that are of the countries neighboring yours? they are the only ones allowed by God. what about all these laws that are similar in context (and also found in leviticus) to the abomination of male homosexuality?
if you are going to use the bible to tell you how to live your life, and preach to others how to live thiers, should you not follow every law set forth in it? these are the hipocracies that I find interesting to see overlooked, but they focus on who god made me want to love for my life, and say that I am doomed to hell, and a sinner. after all, did not jesus say let he who is without sin cast the first stone? there seems to be alot of stone throwers that have perfect lives in the eyes fo the lord out there in america right now.

So, suppose that I am a Christian, and that I believe that homosexual acts are sinful, and perseverating on homosexual thoughts is also sinful. And suppose further that I believe that this sinfulness exists despite the possible fact that homosexuals cannot alter their sexual orientation.

What should I do?

Well, I should abstain from homosexual sex.

But it really doesn’t matter how successful I am at that. You see, I believe that I am a sinner. I don’t happen to be tempted toward homosexual sex. Atypically enough, I am not all that tempted by heterosexual sex anymore. I was never highly sexed, and as time has passed, that has diminished.

Yet still I am a sinner.

I don’t even shop, all that much. And, all teasing and joking aside, I really do believe that shopping is easily and obviously a sin, even more obviously than homosexuality. (Commandments, anyone?) So, I avoid shopping. Yet, still, I am a sinner.

That doesn’t mean that I am not a Christian, loved by the Lord, and saved for eternal joy by the Grace of God.

If someone comes to me and offers to be a spiritual leader, I am not going to ask him about his sexual experience, or his favorite places to shop. I am going to watch his interactions with people, and especially with sinners. If I think he acts more like Christ than like me, then yes, he becomes my spiritual leader. Apostolic Succession is a matter of being touched by the Spirit of the Lord, not the hand of a priest.

I don’t have faith in sinlessness. I don’t have faith in priests, I don’t have faith in the Bible, I don’t have faith in Church, or public displays of piety. I have faith in the Lord, and only in Him. All other things are things of the world. The world is sunk in a quagmire of sin. Sorting out the sinners by type or gravity of sin is a secular activity. I happen to think that it is a sin, too. Pretty much everything but loving God, and loving His children is a sin. Everything. All of it. Your favorite stuff, my favorite stuff. The stuff you hate, the stuff I hate. It’s all sin. Listening to people whine about other people’s sins pisses me off, and that too is a sin. Are we getting my drift here?

None are righteous, and mostly, that means you. It means me too, but I was particularly addressing those who think some are more unrighteous than others. Go tell Orwell about that, I ain’t buyin’.

So, the answer to the question is, if I think homosexuality is a sin, I should try with all my heart and all my soul to love the Lord, and love His children, each and every one. I should judge not, lest I choose to be judged, and I should treat each soul I meet as if that soul were My Lord Himself. One day, it will be.

More or less the same thing I should do if I didn’t think homosexuality was specifically a sin. Or if a Republican tried to become a deacon of my church. Or if an advertising executive asked me to help him find spiritual peace. It isn’t about the sins, it’s about the Lord, and the Love of God, and the divine grace that brings us each and all into Salvation.

Tris

But don’t you see the hypocrisy in this?

You believe something is wrong, but you don’t fight against it. You just stay silent, and pray for their souls. Gay, straight, married, unmarried, their lifestyle so goes against yours that you feel it necessary to pray that they will see the light.

What light? YOUR light? What you believe to be God’s light?

No one KNOWS what God thinks. NO ONE. All we’ve got to go on is one book. One book that God didn’t even write. The people that wrote it say that God said X, or Jesus said Y. The people that wrote it say that God said X or Jesus said Y.

The Bible is a remarkable book. And the most influential book on the planet, IMHO. But, also IMHO, it is the world’s longest, most beautifully written telephone game. It’s mostly a collection of stories that had been passed down orally for centuries before ever being written. The books of the New Testament are a little younger, but even those weren’t written “as it happened,” if you will. And we won’t even go into the books that aren’t included in the Bible because some early believer thought they were “heretical.”

In other words, I know that if I hit my hand really hard with a hammer, it’s going to hurt me. I can go to my utility drawer right now, get a hammer, and prove that. But homosexuality? I don’t know that it’s wrong, and when it comes to religion, there’s a HUGE difference between knowledge and belief.

I’ll find out if what I believe is correct when I die. Or not, if there’s no Deity. And until that time, I will believe that there is NOTHING anything wrong with being gay, and I believe that people who discriminate based on sexual orientation believe are WRONG.

I vote for this one!

mojave, you’re my new best friend. :smiley:

Esprix

If by hypocrisy you mean believing one way and acting in another, then no, I don’t see it. Prayer is the most effectual tool I have. Confrontation, in almost all cases, would not be helpful.

Did you miss where I said this? (underline added)

I don’t claim to know God perfectly. It’s possible that I’m wrong about the nature of marriage and sex. I don’t think I am, though, so I have to act according to my convictions based on my understanding of God as He reveals himself through scripture, church tradition, reason, and through the Holy Spirit.

Fair enough. I’m not telling you what to believe; I’m just telling you what I believe. And what have I said that makes you think I discriminate based on sexual orientation?

Esprix, I’m truly honored. Thanks. :slight_smile:

Poly, the consensus seems already to have expressed what I came in here to say: that maintaining a dogmatic belief in a dictated faith is the irrational aspect of this thought experiment, not the love between two people who are not yourself.

Each of us must be able to conjure an image of the universe in order to find a place for ourselves in it; this is consciousness. A detailed, literal representation of the universe would obviously not fit in our minds, so each of us must create a metaphor that allows us to do this. I think of this metaphor as a map of the universe, and I see the struggle of human existence as the neverending process of creating, adding to, and revising this map; this metaphor.

Organized religion is a helpful starting place for some people on this process. But to the extent to which one simply adopts that religion, unexamined and un-customized, as it were, to that extent that person is trying to get through life using somebody else’s map. This leads to frustration and genocide.

The hypothetical person you describe is at a point where they must revise their map. How they do so is up to them, but I hope they do it honestly and truthfully, according to what they have learned on this planet, and not simply according to the dictates of an authority figure.

Upon rereading the OP, my mind keeps getting stuck on this sentence. How on earth can someone who believes that gay sex is sinful, not be a homophobe? The belief that gay sex is sinful **is precisely ** the crux of homophobia. To be homophobic is to believe that gay sex is sinful.

If you insist in that belief, don’t be offended when someone calls you a homophobe, or worse - a hypocrite. But just remember: it’s a lot easier for you to change your beliefs than for me to change my sexuality.

I suppose if you’re going to use that definition of homophobia, I’ll have to accept the label. Falling back on name calling is unfortunate though.

However, this is the second time in this thread I’ve been called (indirectly) a hypocrite. I’d like to know what definition of that word you’re using.

(BTW, excellent comments up there, Panache45. I’ve been meaning to say that.)

What I can’t wrap my mind around is if gay sex is wrong, how does the person feel about the fact that I’m in love? Do I get to be in love with another woman if I’m celibate? In which case, my post above applies-- as far as you’re concerned, whether or not I’m having sex is none of your business.

If the person involved can’t make that disconnect, then Panache45’s post applies-- basically, you observe that two people are in love, who are in a relationship that is healthy and mutually beneficial, then maybe you should start questioning your belief system. It’s not so far-fetched. There’s plenty of Christian scholarship that disputes the idea that is gay sex is inherently sinful. Most Christian sects, even the most conservative, have people in it who challenge this belief based on that scholarship.

I’m curious as to PolyCarp’s take on this whole debate.

I’ve been intrigued by most of the responses – excluding those by people incapable or unwilling to invest the empathy necessary to put themselves in the place of another.

And yeah, Skammer, you were one of a fair number of people that have, many of them, come out of the woodwork when the proverbial excrement hit the rotary air-propulsion device this summer, whose views I’ve been trying to take into account.

My own POV on the whole issue is that the Bible condemns selfishness, including sexual selfishness. If, therefore I, listening to what wisdom is in it, act to gratify myself at someone else’s expense, that act is sinful, whether it be to cheat someone in a transaction or to get a blowjob. On the other hand, sex as part of a loving relationship is what God intended it for. (This is Paragraph A, for reference below.)

But the other piece of relevant data is that this view, the same book tells me, applies to my behavior – that the only occasion to press my views on what is and is not sinful on another is if he or she asks me for my advice – or if he or she, claiming to be Christian, is (ab)using the Bible to condemn someone else’s choices in life, because a part of my Christian duty is to help my fellow Christian when he or she is falling into sin, and that judgmentalism is definitely condemned as sin. (This is Paragraph B.)

Now, with that perspective, it’s not hard to grasp the morality of someone like Priam or andygirl, who is gay and Christian. And it’s blatantly obvious what the homophobic hypocrites and non-hypocritical but judgmental neo-Pharisees take as their stance.

But what provoked the OP was my recognition that there are a lot of Christians out thre who hold to Paragraph B but take a bit more nearly literal take on the Bible, and therefore see any gay sexual act as sinful – but decline to judge others on that basis because of the Scriptural teaching underlying Paragraph B.

My take on the idea of homophobia has always been that it’s a particular case of a common failing of humanity – to feel that “the way I do things, feel, and think, is the only right way to do things, feel, and think, and that because you don’t follow my way of doing, thinking, and feeling, you are therefore lacking, and in my wisdom , I am honorbound to educate you as to the right way to do/think/feel.” It happens I detest 99.44% of rap/hiphop, but I don’t feel any call from God to insist that you share my attitude. Likewise, I don’t expect you to share my views as to the high quality of Robert A. Heinlein’s published works. And I don’t think you’re under any obligation to find sexually attractive all those and only those whom I find sexually attractive. Nor are you, without having converted to Christianity, under any obligation to live by the rules I believe myself called to live by – and probably not even then, because God sets each of us to tasks He equips us to carry out, and what He expects of you may be far different than what He expects of me.

A homophobe, IMHO, is someone whose ego is so hypertrophied, and his empathy atrophied, to the extent that he thinks everyone needs to live by his rules, which include lusting after the cheerleader and not the quarterback – and never mind that the same book that fobids the latter forbids the former too, unless you happen to be the one guy who’s married to her.

But there do seem to exist a fair set of people who believe that something has been declared wrong, and they should not indulge in it, but among those somethings is the condemnation of others for not sharing one’s belief about what’s been declared wrong.

I’ve learned a lot about people’s perspectives, which was my main reason for opening this thread. I don’t think I’ve gotten an answer that works, but I suspect Skammer may have. And IMHO it’s not that he’s homophobic or hypocritical.

lissener, that was quite insighful, and I appreciate it. mojave and Esprix, that puts a whole new perspective on “tea rooms.” :wink:

Homophobia is the belief that homosexuality, either in orientation or in practice, is wrong. I can’t think of a more accurate definition. If someone believes that gay sex is a sin, how on earth can you **not **conclude that that person is homophobic? That belief is what homophobia is.

By accepting that belief, you are saying that my love for my partner, and my expression of that love, are wrong. And you are accusing **ME ** of “name-calling”? If I hear someone express a statement of racism, I have every reason to call that person a racist. If I hear someone express a statement of sexism, I have every reason to call that person a sexist. It’s not “name-calling,” it’s a simple fact of reality.

And if you truly believe that gay sex is a sin, and you deny that you are homophobic, then I have every reason to call you a hypocrite. I was obviously not referring to you personally in my last post. But you obviously saw yourself in my description. The shoe fits.

First, I’ve already accepted that by your definition, I’m homophobic. However I think you cheapen the word by applying it so broadly. As I said before, I treat my gay friends and acquaintences with respect and dignity. I welcome them into fellowship. I appreciate their contributions. I value the gay posters on this board who have helped me to understand their perspectives (including you). Using the same word to describe me and, say, Fred Phelps, really makes it hard to ascribe any real meaning to it. You should save it for people who hate gays, or who discriminate against them, or harass them. I’d even join you in using it.

And clearly some people, like our friend Poly, believe it’s at least possible to belive that homosexual sex is a sin without being homophobic. So he must be operating with a different definition than you are.

Second, your definition of hypocrite also seems to be different than the one I know.

I will confess I have an extremely difficult time accepting people who think of my sexuality, either in orientation or in practice, as a sin.

Esprix

Me too; and Skammer, despite your attempts to justify your hypocrisy by “treat[ing] your gay friends and acquaintances with respect and dignity,” you remain a homophobe. Your treatment of your friends and acquaintances is patronising and hypocritical, and you treat them in this manner because of your hypocritical, homophobic sense of superiority.

Until you realize that your homophobia is disgust hypocritically back-justified by bible browsing, and NOT a pious adherence to the holy word, you’ll be just that little bit blind to your world, and to yourself.

Sorry Skammer; on rereading there’s more anger in that post than I meant; I felt only pity.

And as far as quoting Websters, that’s a pretty narrow tree to hide behind. We all (you included) that the complementary meaning, a person who HIDES beliefs that he DOES hold, is equally valid.

I think the basis of your accusations is unfounded – you are projecting feeling and attitudes onto me that I don’t have.

You assume that I have a “homophobic sense of superiority” and have used the bible to justify my “disgust.” But that’s comletely false. First of all, I would have a hard time feeling morally superior to anyone. I’m no less of a sinner than anyone else, and I would hate for my sex life or sexual history to be public knowledge. Secondly, homosexuality doesn’t particularly disgust me. I know sex is enjoyable, so it isn’t suprising or shocking to me that homosexuals have sex. I don’t completely understand it, and I’ve never been tempted by it, but I don’t find it disgusting.

I don’t see how treating gay people like everyone else is being patronising or hypocritical. I don’t feel any animosity toward them, are you saying I should treat them with contempt? You know what, I believe pre-marital sex to be a sin too, but very many of my friends (in my pre-marital days) did it as often as they could. Was it patronising and hypocritical for me to be friends with them? To treat them with respect?

I’ll agree with your definition that if I were hiding feelings that I did hold, I would be guilty of hypocricy. But you are assuming that I have hidden feelings here, when I’m really being very open about them.

Then where does your judgment of homosexuals come from?