Turning Oil into fuel to run your car, is the biggest waste of this ressource. There are more usefull thing that we need Oil for.
I drive daily 200km to work and burn approximatly 10L of Diesel, that is 1000km (600miles) and 40L (10 US Gallon) of Diesel per week, 2080 Liters of Diesel per year.
With that much Oil, you can heat your modern well insulated house for 2-3 years (in Ireland).
Have easily a shitload of Plastic products for 3-4 years.
I think the real question is: How much expectation should consumers have that the products we buy are being produced and delivered to us as safely and responsibly as possible? If I ordered a pizza, and the delivery guy was drunk and caused a big car wreck on the way to my house, would it be my fault for having ordered the pizza? By extension, is everybody who’s ever ordered a pizza culpable to some extent? I have to think not, since it’s reasonable for me to expect the pizza place to hire safe and law-abiding drivers, and it’s not my problem if they don’t.
How naïve is it to extend this metaphor to the oil industry? We still don’t have all the answers, but it seems clear that the gulf spill was not inevitable, and that procedural and regulatory breakdowns occurred far from the general public’s sphere of influence.
In fact, the “If you use oil it’s your fault” argument advanced by the OP is the naïve one. Oh wait, if I rode my bike to work, this never could have happened. Bullshit.
Why on earth did you take a job 120 miles away from your house?
Anyway, arguably, there aren’t any more useful things we need oil for. Gasoline (and diesel) are among the most weight-efficient power sources. Even taking into account all the heavy stuff cars need to pass modern emissions standards, they’re still relatively much more efficient than electric vehicles.
On the other hand, we can make plastics out of lots of other things, including renewable resources like cellulose.
So far this year the solar panels I put on my roof in February have produced 3,552.00 kWh - I have been a net generator of electricity since installation. No guilt there.
I drive a 41 MPG hybrid auto (Ford Fusion). No guilt there.
I push for Nuclear, plus tax credits for solar with repeated harassment of my Congresscritters. No guilt there.
As for BP, I await more information on how many different people dropped the ball, and on how extensive the issue really is in terms of ALL of the Gulf oil rigs. Increasing the safety requirements is fine with me, even if it raises the eventual price of gas.
My only real guilt would come from my commute - 75 miles a day. Nothing that can be done about that.
An excellent response. I was waiting for a coherent logical based one, otherwise there is no challenge.
As to your point above, you state that you personally riding your bike to work wouldn’t change the oil spill. But yet my argument was, if applied to your example, is that if everyone rode their bike, there would be little or no oil use, therefore no spill. Your quoted point does not refute my argument.
You are right that if just one person (you) rides your bike, the spill would happen anyway; but it still means the others (the SUV drivers) use the oil, and share in the guilt.
But I drive a Prius and have Solar Power. Do I still need to feel quilty? I thought I was suppose to feel smug or the like.
What makes you think you can’t feel smug and guilty at the same time? Indeed, I thought that was the default setting.
Feeling quilty, on the other hand, is optional. I guess if you generate enough quilts to reduce your heating bill, you can have some extra smug.
Your OP was no logical based, because you wouldn’t be able to use your computer.
The only way we could live without Oil is going back to the stone age.
I know this has exactly 0% chance of getting through you, Gonzo.
But when you argue for solar and wind and other alternative sources, you aren’t arguing against nuclear power. Nuclear power can happily coexist with these sources.
The reality is - the reality that you delusional psuedoenvironmentalist luddite just brush aside - is that there’s no chance that we will run exclusively off alternative power at any point probably in the next 50 years at least. Even if we went gung ho and really pushed alternative energy sources, we’re probably looking optimistically at deriving 25-35% of our power from them. And that would be great - no one is against that.
But they are impractical for using exclusively. The sun goes down. Wind patterns are not completely reliable. On wind, we’ve already picked the low hanging fruit for turbine placement. There needs to be a base load power - reliable power that is always on and always available. For us now, that is coal. When you argue against nuclear, you are not arguing for solar or wind, you are arguing for coal. The coal that ejects billions of tons of CO2 into our atmosphere. The coal that releases pollutants that give people lung cancer and cause smog and acid rain. The pollutants that, ironically, release more radiation into the atmosphere than a nuke plant ever would. The coal plants that give us over 100,000 tons of year of absolutely vile toxic waste that has to be disposed of, which ruins far more land than nuclear waste does and is almost as toxic while being far more plentiful.
Pretty much no one advocating for nuclear power is against solar or wind or any other sources. I’m certainly not. The difference here is that the people advocating nuclear power are willing to be the grownups and see the situation for how it is, rather than just repeating a simplistic and wrong YAY SOLAR AND WIND AND PUPPIES FOR EVERYONE! mantra.
120 mils, sorry mad a mistake there… it is 120mils both ways if I would go straight home, but I actualy travel much more, because I do most work on the way to and from work. Somewhat part of my job.
No argument there, that currently Oil is the only efficent methode of transportation. Anything else is currently not working on a big scale.
Your hybrid does only 41 mpg?
My standard Opel Corsa does 55 mpg.
It’s not that I don’t care about the enviroment, but the most importend reason for fuel saving is the price of fuel, curently I am paying €1.24 per liter.
The US Ford Fusion is a large saloon car, not a small hatchback. It’s about the same size as a BMW 5-series.
This is pretty much the answer. Solar and wind are awesome and we need to keep pushing these techs and improving them but to really reduce coal, we need Hydro or Nuke, something that is a constant and fairly sure supply. The greens (and I am one) are in general very much against all 3 options. No coal, no fission and no hydro. It is not realistic at all.
BTW: Even my Prius only gets 50 mpg and that is about tops currently. My wifes old 88 Honda CRX use to get a legit 55 mpg but of course it was a 2 seater.
Exactly - good mid-sized sedan that I can take people to lunch in without being too cramped.
I didn’t get the Saloon option though - the brass spittoons clashed, and Miss Kitty was not available either.
I walk or bicycle to work!
Ultra-Smug
Look, I do recycle and use cloth grocery bags and try to cut down on unnecessary driving trips, under the (perhaps unrealistic) assumption that my miniscule efforts times tens of millions of other miniscule efforts might do a bit of good for the planet.
So let’s say I take it a step further and quit taking my car to work. It’s only 10 miles, and I should get in better shape anyway. Okay, fine. But I’m still going to use my car when I go to my brother’s house 20 miles away. I’ll still fly to visit my parents 1000 miles away. The cheese I put in my cloth grocery bag is wrapped in plastic. Like it or not, you just ain’t gonna be able to live in 2010 and completely eschew all petroleum products.
So where exactly is the line at which, by your standards, I can stop feeling gulity about the gulf spill?
And, more to the point, when does a consumer become culpable for any accident that may befall a company or industry which provides the product one purchases? Does high demand for oil automatically mean the gulf incident was inevitable?
Somewhere between my last $30 fill-up and the Deepwater Horizon’s blowout preventer, somebody fucked up very badly. I think the fuck-up(s) happened a hell of a lot closer to the latter than the former.
Saloon is the British (and Irish) equivalent of sedan. :mad: But you knew that.
I’m unemployed. I don’t even produce all the CO2 you do with your reckless exercising!
maxi-smug
There’s no sanctimony involved here (nor did I vote for Nader not that that means much of anything). I fully admit the way I live helped caused this disaster. I just find it amusing when people don’t realize they reap what they sow and worse yet, expect pity when what they’ve done bites them in the ass.
The tools you saw might have run on battery power (large storage batteries, not like in your flashlight). There are non-electric hydraulic systems too, though I don’t know if they can produce enough to run saws usefully.
The real Amish have never forsworn electricity per se. Nor oil–when I lived in central Pennsylvania, the Amish there used plenty of kerosene, and while they didn’t use tractors, they did use a number of other very modern farm machines.
The Amish do certain things differently, in part, to be different, not because they find an intrinsic moral problem in the technology. It isn’t as dumb as it sounds when you understand their context. You might not agree with their values, but as a group they are not hypocrites.
Anyone who’s interested in really understanding the Amish approach to technology should read The Amish Struggle with Modernity.
Yes, as consumers of petrochemical products, we’re all to blame. In a way.
But your finding BP’s criminal negligence “amusing” reeks of sanctimony.