You can't be the Policeman of the World and Mr Nice Guy at the same time.

The BBQ Pit
21

egospark. I just happened to glance at this thread and it’s my moral duty to say something.

I’ve never in my life heard such nationalistic rubbish. I’ll bet you that somewhere in Nazi Germany, 60 years ago, some guy was saying to his frineds,

" As we move slowly toward a World Government and the various forces of the Nationalism continue to rear their ugly heads…blah, blah, blah…We don’t need to take crap froom anyone – that’s one of the perks of being a SUPERPOWER! It would be easier to just order these so-called “sovereign” nations into line, and quash anyone who got uppity."

This is the sort of thing that make me sad. They say history repeats itself, but oh boy I did not think it would be so soon.

22

Elijah–you made the comment earlier that you bet no one in the US heard of Hitler before they decided it was time to kick his ass (i.e., 1941). That’s not even close to being accurate. Hitler had been leader of Germany since the early 30’s, and all the leaders of the free world were aware of him. Some actually endorsed his government, because he claimed to be anti-communist (he was actually anti-anything not him). Germany’s moves into Austria and Czechsolvakia were watched passively by the rest of the world, because the free world didn’t want to get involved in local events.

23

Well, I’m taking my chances giving my opinion here. I’m not a great follower of international events so don’t ping me; I’m just going to give my opinion on the topic as asked.

If we, as the world superpower, are going to play policeman, don’t go in and dink around trying to get everyone to “share the love” or “do unto others”. If they were doing these things or wanted to do these things, we wouldn’t be there. Go in, kick butt, discipline the children that refuse to behave (not according to our standards but to world standards), and then get out. Desert Storm was a mistake in that we didn’t finish the job. Don’t tell me that Navy Seals or Green Berets couldn’t go in and find Saddam and finish him. Of course, I know, that begs the questions, “would the next government be better than him.” Maybe not, but it would be a chastized one. Anyway, don’t fiddle-fart around. Stop trying to be diplomatic about anything vaguely militaristic! There’s the old saying, “war is hell”; I think we’ve tried to make war too civilized, if you can do such a thing. I’m not saying “let’s go in and take over and make them do what we want.” I mean, make them behave according to the world’s standards (peaceful discussion, votes for all, etc etc).

On the question of nationalism, I, for one, don’t think nationalism is a bad thing. My definition of nationalism is the spirit of support/love/pride felt by a group of people that share a culture heritage (for example: American Culture, Italian Culture, etc) for their country. However, nationalism becomes wrong when we try to impose our culture on others without their permission. This does get a bit sticky when you consider how much of American culture (some of dubious quality) we’ve exported. I’m not a great believer in a one-world government and yes, I am an American and former military. I don’t see what benefit one-world government now would provide that national governments cannot provide. I think it would be like inviting your entire extended family (aunts, uncles, third cousins, etc) to come live with you in the same house.

There’s my .02

Carpe Diem!

24

Keeping in mind that this is the BBQ pit:

If you are really former military, then you fucking well know it is illegal for the U.S. to assassinate foreign heads of state, according to our own laws. I’m glad you are “former.”

Nationalism —> exclusion —> intolerance —> war.

25

PL, excuse the hell out of me! Come on, be realistic! When the hell did it matter what the law said when it comes to war? Ask the CIA-I think you’ll get a different answer. At least I served. Did you? Oh, I forgot, that would mean you were a nationalist. God forbid you should be considered part of the scum-sucking nationalist group called the US Military.

If you had taken the time to read the rest of my post, you would have seen that I feel it is wrong to impose a culture (again, see my definition of nationalism) on another nation against their will. Or did you only read the parts you wanted? Nationalism only leads to exclusion when you deny others the right to join your culture; Gee, I remember something about “give me your tired, your poor…” ring a bell? Nationalism on America’s part, it’s belief in adding the culture of different nations to it’s own, has made it what it is today.

Carpe Diem!

26

Since making a habit of assassinating heads of state makes your own a legitimate target.

Good thing the CIA isn’t in charge of military policy, huh? Please.

Bully for you. Really.

Only vicariously, like through my father getting his ass shot at in Southeast Asia the day I was born. He stayed in for 28 years, BTW, and tends to be ashamed of jingoistic, gung-ho fuckheads.

I spent the better part of my youth on military bases, shithead. Don’t make presumptions; you only look stupider.

So, like, assassinating their leader? Does that count? The Iraqis in general tend to be find of Hussein.

You do know we’ve actually had immigration quotas for nearly our entire history, right? Didn’t the military teach you that?

Actually, America is more adept at cultural elimination than cultural assimilation, as evidenced by the threatened posture Mr. and Mrs. America assume when confronted with anything “different.”

27

“I spent the better part of my youth on military bases, shithead. Don’t make presumptions; you only look stupider.”

And once again, the dickhead known as pldennison comes off looking like the “fuckwad”* that he is. For some reason, Mr. Dennison has the inability to argue without calling someone a ridiculous name. Yes, I stooped to the fuckwad’s level, but only for a moment.

*pldennison’s favorite putdown!

28

Gee PL, your use of vulgur words has completely caused me to rethink my position and I bow before greater intellect.

Immigration quotas doesn’t mean we are accepting people. It means we aren’t getting overrun at one time.

You are right: the CIA isn’t in charge of the military. Come to think of it, who actually knows what they do. Scary, huh?

As far as Hussein, my only thought was that “he started it, we’ll finish it”. I don’t see where we were trying to make them “little America”. That’s an imposition of culture. Taking out a genocidal, invasion-oriented, dictator is different. And as far as the Iraqis liking Hussein, of course that’s what they say. All the ones who have said anything against him are dead or exiled. Wasn’t his son-in-law or son part of that group?

I’m glad you’re dad made it back from Asia. Mine did too. He also happened to be there the day I was born. I don’t believe I was being “jingo-istic”. I never said “America-right or wrong”. However, as a superpower, we have a responsibility and I don’t feel we’ve exercised that responsibility well.

And were did you find that I assumed you hadn’t served? I was right, wasn’t I? I don’t believe being a military brat and being on a base qualifies you as having served in the military. Sorry you’re so bitter about. Obviously, it’s been an issue for you.

This is my final post. You don’t wish to debate. You wish to argue. There’s a difference. Enjoy yourself. I won’t be part of it.

Carpe Diem!

29

Gee PL, your use of vulgur words has completely caused me to rethink my position and I bow before greater intellect.

Immigration quotas doesn’t mean we are accepting people. It means we aren’t getting overrun at one time.

You are right: the CIA isn’t in charge of the military. Come to think of it, who actually knows what they do. Scary, huh?

As far as Hussein, my only thought was that “he started it, we’ll finish it”. I don’t see where we were trying to make them “little America”. That’s an imposition of culture. Taking out a genocidal, invasion-oriented, dictator is different. And as far as the Iraqis liking Hussein, of course that’s what they say. All the ones who have said anything against him are dead or exiled. Wasn’t his son-in-law or son part of that group?

I’m glad you’re dad made it back from Asia. Mine did too. He also happened to be there the day I was born. I don’t believe I was being “jingo-istic”. I never said “America-right or wrong”. However, as a superpower, we have a responsibility and I don’t feel we’ve exercised that responsibility well.

And were did you find that I assumed you hadn’t served? I was right, wasn’t I? I don’t believe being a military brat and being on a base qualifies you as having served in the military. Sorry you’re so bitter about. Obviously, it’s been an issue for you.

This is my final post. You don’t wish to debate. You wish to argue. There’s a difference. Enjoy yourself. I won’t be part of it.

Carpe Diem!

30

Whoops! That should be “aren’t accepting people”

Sorry for the double post, all.

Carpe Diem!

31

(Looks up at Forum title) This is the BBQ pit, right? I guess some people can’t handle it. If you can’t stand the heat, boys and girls, stay out of the pit.

32

Oh yeah, BTW, anyone who would ask “When the hell did it matter what the law said when it comes to war?” deserves to be stripped of any military rank and record they ever had. There are international laws and accords governing the conduct of war, and participants are expected to abide by them; and countries determine their own internal policies on what is legal and what is not when waging hostilities, and are expected to abide by those as well.

33

BunnyGirl, my apologies for being so harsh; I should have conveyed my content more meaningfully.

First, it matters a great deal what is legal and what is not in wartime, or else the Geneva Convention and concepts like “war crimes” would not exist. Furthermore, the U.S. has decided that it is not in its interests to target foreign heads of state for assassination, and we therefore do not.

We had an identifiable goal in the Gulf, and we acheived it: Remove the Iraqi army from Kuwait. We had no reason to enter Iraq, drive towards the capital, and target Hussein personally for elimination. That isn’t how the military conducts its business and you know it.

As far as my experiences as an army brat, “bitter” is the farthest word in the world to describe it. In fact, that part of my youth was much more enjoyable than the part after my parents’ divorce. I got to travel, and I got to live in Europe for three years. Of course, as soon as my parents divorced, my father got stationed at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii–go figure.

I do, however, resent the implication that those who serve in the military are superior citizens. That isn’t true, and you know that, as well. The military isn’t for everyone.

Finally, if I am venomous on the subject of nationalism, it is because I throw it into the same category as religion and race–it is ultimately divisive rather than unifying, and the last thing the world needs is more division and more reason to be hostile.

Again, my apologies for the attack.

34

PL, thanks for the apology. I guess if I had stopped to think about what I wrote instead of giving just an emotional response, things wouldn’t have gotten messy. Like I said in my e-mail to you, my response was emotional: I always think of nationalism along the lines of the “warm-fuzzies” and not the hateful exclusion that some people use it for.

You’re right. The military isn’t for everyone. I’m just very proud of having served and so enjoyed the experience that I get a little puffed about it at times. Sorry to come off as “Ms. USA!USA!”

More in the e-mail for you if you haven’t read it yet.
See ya!

Carpe Diem!

35

[[And were did you find that I assumed you hadn’t served?]] Bunnygirl

You didn’t?

[[ I was right, wasn’t I? ]]

You did?