Ok once again, I ask…why didn’t she demand answers BEFORE the trip, if not enough information was provided? She wanted to know what the kids would be doing; it wasn’t described on the permission slip. So, apparently she asked the director, but you’re now saying the director didn’t know… So the why the hell did she let her kids go on the trip, if the director didn’t even know what they were doing? Please people, answer this question!
Just to avoid confusion: Biggirl has not participated in this thread. birdgirl has.
Whoever is at fault here definitely does deserve to be fired. (S)he violated policy and exposed the center to numerous potential lawsuits (which, frivolous or not, cost big money to defend). It does not matter how prevalent allergies, diseases, etc. are that might cause death or serious injury in the woods. The parents were not able to make an informed choice here, and that is a huge problem from a legal perspective.
A few points:
- Birdgirl, your contention that the onus to ask what to bring should be on the parents is simply idiotic. No school or day care center wants or expects to receive dozens of calls from every parent of a child going on a proposed field trip, asking what to bring, etc. Because these facilities don’t want these calls (and can’t deal with that vast a number of them), they traditionally send letters to parents explaining where they’re going, what they’re doing, and what they’ll need to bring. Parents are perfectly justified in expecting that a facility will do so because it’s established practice.
Whatever you may say, “technical school” conjures up visions of a sterile steel-and-glass building, air conditioned to meat locker like temperatures, and full of computers and eggheads. It does not give any hint to parents that they might be outdoors, no matter where it’s located.
Parents were misled in two very blatant ways here. It should’ve been abundantly obvious to the organizer that people would be confused. If it wasn’t, (s)he isn’t qualified for his/her job and should be fired.
- I have done a lot of serious, week-long, backpacking trips in the mountains during the summer. A few things:
a) You’re a fool if you don’t take the threat of Lyme disease seriously, especially in an area where there is a high risk. People pick it up in their own well-manicured back yards. It’s also a very serious illness. To say otherwise betrays a woeful ignorance of the facts.
I wear bug spray on my outings, cover my hair with a bandanna, and do a tick-check with my sisters every day. It’s not something to take lightly.
b) 90 degree weather IS very hot for any kind of moderate to strenuous outdoor activity. It is safe only if precautions are taken. As stated earlier, children are more prone to heat stroke than adults. I would never leave the house on such a day for 5 hours in the woods without my OWN supply of water. It is reckless to count on someone else to provide it unless you know it will always be readily available. I wouldn’t do it myself, and certainly wouldn’t let a kid go unprepared.
I should know–I detassled cornfields in 80-95 degree temperatures for 6-8 hours at a time, every day, for a good 4-6 weeks in the summers. We were merely walking through the fields pulling tassels–not especially hard work–but young, healthy teenagers who were not properly dressed or who did not have their own water supply frequently dropped from heat exhaustion or heat stroke. The company claimed to provide water on demand, but actually restricted access to it to two times per day and sometimes forgot to provide it at all.
Hence, yes, being out in such weather is a health concern, and yes, it’s one kids need to be adequately prepared for by their own parents.
c) My parents, avid backpackers, would never, ever let us go on such a hike without proper footwear–and that meant sturdy hiking boots and thick socks. This is for a variety of health and safety reasons, and it’s a practice I continue today. I’m sure most parents did not send their kids prepared in this manner for something described as a “technical school.”
- I do not have children, but when I do, I will force them to be outdoors a lot. I don’t believe in video games or more than an hour of TV or computer time per day for kids. When the weather is good, kids should be outside.
So no, this is not a position that only overprotective parents or couch potatoes would take.
- It seems clear to me that you do not take health and safety during hiking and camping very seriously. I would urge you, for your own sake, to reconsider your cavalier attitude. Every responsible outdoorsman/woman needs to Be Prepared.
Uhm, birdgirl?
SHE DID ASK.
[quote]
**
C. The teachers are great are were under the same impression as me: they thought they were going to a TECHNOLOGY SCHOOL! They.Were.Pissed.**[/quote[
The teachers were also pissed. Not just ‘one parent’. How did she know they were pissed? THEY ARE HER COWORKERS.
You are starting to give the impression of someone with a major reading comprehension problem.
Uh, I did read the posts, all of the posts in this thread. Why do you think otherwise? According to the OP you pasted above, DIVA asked the director about the field trip because she “had no idea what they would be doing.” The director gave her reply, but did not give DEVA all the information she was looking for i.e. what they would be doing. This is all undisputed.
So what I keep asking (and what no one will answer) is: Why didn’t DEVA ask the director what they would be doing when she didn’t answer her the first time? She was standing right in front of her, face to face. She asked about the field trip. Director did not give sufficient answer. So why didn’t DEVA question her further? Why did DEVA just walk away without an answer?
Birdgirl, your questions have been more than adequately answered in the last several posts to this thread, so at this point I can only assume that you’re trying to provoke a senseless argument.
For my part, I believe I’ve stated my argument in as logical a fashion as I can muster. If you have further questions, feel free to re-read my previous posts, or in fact the posts of just about everyone else who has posted to this thread.
Also, please be more careful about attributing quotes when you use the QUOTE tags.
Maybe because she figured that, whatever it was they’d be doing, it wouldn’t be something that required precautions to be taken such as bugspray, sunscreen, etc.??
You’re probably pretty close to being asked to go live in the woods, IMHO.
People have given you sufficient answers to this question; however, they are apparently not comprehensible to someone who demonstrates the reading comprehension level of a histrionic three-year-old with ADHD.
You’re wrong, O.N. Jones. Quite the contrary, I am a skilled and experienced outdoorswoman. Have been for the past 10 years. I have taken classes in college on wilderness and backcountry skills. I have read tons of books on the subject. I am always prepared, always, and have never been left needing anything on any trip I’ve ever been on. I’ve never been hurt or uncomfortable. I am certainly not cavalier. I have spent much time exploring backcountry and wilderness areas in West Virginia and Virginia.
So as you can see, you’re wrong here.
I just have to add my 2 cents. I am childless. I was outraged by the OP, and the blasé attitude of the director.
It is clear from the OP that not only were the parents not given enough information, the teachers didn’t know it would be outdoors. Obviously, then, no one was told exactly what this field trip would entail, and any questions asked of the faculty by the parents (a far more obvious source for information in this case than online), would not render any further detail.
The director may not have lied, per se, but she certainly wasn’t applying due diligence on the information provided. (I must confess amazement that she didn’t, if only to protect against law suits.)
Forget the sunscreen/bugspray/water issue. These parents had every right to be fully informed about where their kids were going and what they would be doing. Since the school is not allowed to take the kids off campus without permission, to gain this permission, and to avoid scenes like this and/or lawsuits, it is in the school’s best interest to provide as much information as possible.
The bottom line, Birdgirl, is that I wouldn’t take your dog for a walk without letting you know where we were going.
Then you more than anyone should be aware of the dangers of being unskilled and unprepared in the woods.
This just makes me think you are being intentionally obtuse.
Um, badmana, it wasn’t Biggirl who said anything.
BTW, please don’t think I spend ALL my time indoors-I like going outside. I like swimming. But if I go out, I like to put on some Skin So Soft so I don’t get eaten alive by the mosquitos (For some reason, they find me a gourmet feast!). I like to be able to have on sunscreen. And I’m not really one for hikes in the woods, like I said, allergies and ophidiophobia. But I do like going to parks and pools and lakes and things.
But not in extreme heat and humidity, like it is right now. When I was in GS, we were prepared and had OFF and sunblock and water bottles, and when we were done with our hikes (creek hikes, the best!) we got back and sat and relaxed in the shade. We were told not to wear perfume or scented soaps, hairspray, shampoos, etc.
birdgirl, it is INDEED possible to be burned in the shade. Perhaps a doctor can weigh in on this, but I’ve been told you can still get a sunburn even in shady areas. Some children have allergies, to plants, animals, bees, etc. It’s just that COMMON SENSE says that parents should have been fucking informed. Maybe you have some who weren’t dressed for a hike-improper shoes, etc.
Perhaps I overreacted, but it seems you are not paying attention. Did you miss the part where I said my grandfather got bitten by a deer tick in his own garden?
Oh, and btw, if someone is out of shape, starting right off for a five hour hike on a hot day is a bad idea. You should start out with something less strenuous and THEN work your way up to a hike like that.
But again, the worst part IS lying to the parents. You open yourself up to all kinds of trouble. My mother didn’t believe me that someone was able to do this-and she works for a school.
Oh, and one other thing-I don’t know what the area around Indian Pipe is like, but I remember going to a friend’s “camp” in Clarion. (It was an old farm-a house with electricity-the only thing we didn’t have was a phone).
We didn’t dare go hiking in those woods-there were bears around their camp, and rattlesnakes up in the mountains.
So you’re simply cavalier about the health and safety needs of people you don’t know? Oh, okay then. :rolleyes:
No outdoorswoman who is truly committed to appropriate safety measures would take the “oh, no big deal” position that you’ve taken. Period.
And evidently not bothering to read the whole thread, either.
Spoken well.
Birdgirl, unless I’m mistaken, this thread was not opened so that you could brag about being a skilled and experienced outsdoorwomen. I’m unimpressed, and quite frankly, you’re not making any friends with your callous comments. A couple of other posters said “yeah, what, big deal” - but you and you alone are defending that position with such passion. Please clue us in as to why this issue means so much to you, as I believe I’m not alone in speculating that you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Jesus freaking Christ, they took the kids on an outdoor field trip during dangerous environmental conditions! I’m assuming that the red alert is like the ozone alert days they have around here. People can die.
We had two in a row this week, and I had to use my inhaler for the first time in 2 weeks. And i was freaking inside sitting at my computer at work, not outside, in the heat, doing physical activity. If any of those kids had any respiratory problems, they could be dead now. But that’s no big deal, right?
Well, you may have spent a lot of time out there yourself, but you obviously don’t know diddly squat about wilderness safety or medicine.
–Green Bean, Wilderness First Responder, whitewater raft guide, hiking guide, outdoor educator, former rock climbing instructor.
If your local commuter transit companies give free bus rides on those days, that’s it exactly.
Ah, yes…a common occurence in my neck of the woods. About five days of the week are “ozone alert” days, and my 5 yr old boy has inherited his mother’s intolerance of heat and allergens.
Green Bean, can you lead our next field trip? 