Another problem is even cops hate the cops. Ask a police officer how he feels about internal affairs or a civilian oversight committee. You’ll probably get a mean spirited tirade against those organizations. The reality is if cops can’t respect the cops who police them and do to them what they do to the public it is unrealistic to think the public will respect them. Perhaps it is just human nature to hate authority and discliplinary figures. I would hope so at least as I’d prefer that over a society where people fawned over disciplinarians. But cops expecting the public to like them while they hate internal affairs is like a mid level manager expecting his underlings to like him while at the same time having a high level of hate for his boss.
I don’t know if you are/were a cop speaker, but how do you feel we should deal with police officers hating internal affairs bureaus? Do you feel that internal affairs/oversight agencies vs. police officers is a different ballgame than public vs. police officers?
A) In my experience, asking them for help has been more of a humiliation than anything. When I lived in DC, a guy threatened to kill me, and the cops ignored it because the threat wasn’t worded properly. Near Boston, my car was broken into and my bike was stolen. I called on the phone and asked if I could fill out a report, and the guy laughed at me. I asked if I could fill out a report, and the guy told me not to bother, and then hung up on me. One winter in Boston, I drove onto an overpass that had a fresh dusting of snow on it. I didn’t realise that part of the overpass allowed a huge puddle to form, and, as overpasses are colder than the ground, it turned into a skating rink. I drove unwittingly over the ice, my brakes locked, and I slid very gracefully into the corner of a car turning onto the overpass. I called the cops on my cell to fill out the accident report. The cop issued me a $120 ticket for speeding on the spot. I had to go to court and point out to the judge the cop wasn’t there when the accident occurred, no accident reconstruction had been performed, and hence even if I was speeding, no one, not even myself, could tell. I mean, what was it, a penalty for calling in an accident? Don’t bug me while I’m at Dunkin Donuts or I’ll issue you a citation?
B) Hire fewer assholes. Seriously. In my home town, one of the biggest stoners and hellraisers I went to school with is now our chief of police (the original chief quit abrubtly, so he kinda slid in as the only alternative on short notice). Everybody knows he nearly flunked out of high school, and spent most of his class time either baked or getting baked. While he was at the academy, everybody knew he’d buy you beer if you gave him some and let him come to the party. He could still hook you up with a nickel bag any time unti he became official. I suppose he has a unique insight into the minds of typical perp., as he was one himself, but that’s not much consolation.
C) If I removed the organization, I’d need to remake it. Why would I do that? Just try the B method above, and see what happens.
D) I like law and order fine. I don’t want a police state or anything, but I’ve got nothing against a lawful society.
F) Boston suburb.
I have hung out with a lot of cops in my life. If you heard the disrespect they have for the citizens you would be shocked. They laugh and joke about the miscarrages of justice they have done. They have an us against them attitude. Since you don’t know whats it is like to be a cop you are not qualified to criticize. Many times I heard them say they have to be a cop, a lawyer and a judge all at once. They joke that they should also be the executioner. Never found that funny.
We all think it is a tough job. Mostly its boredom. But, when its tough it can get ugly fast. We give them authority over us and allow them to have weapons. I believe they should be held to a higher standard. They are aware of the laws more than we and I expect them to follow them.
A lot of us say we would not want that job. But, they do. They seem to love it. I think they are highly paid and I want them to be professional. I think they should root out the bad apples, instead of protecting them.
Personally, because of arbitrariness, stereotyping, and hypocrisy.
Arbitrariness - you just don’t know which laws the cops are going to enforce on a particular day, or whether the law is even going to govern their actions. I hate the feeling I get when a cop pulls in behind me on the road. I’ll be cruising along with the flow of traffic, not violating any rules I am aware of, but I am completely aware that the cop might decide to pull me over anyway.
Stereotyping - a few years back, my wife was driving her old car, which was a beater. It was around midnight, and she was driving through a wealthy town. I called her because I needed a lift. She pulled off the road into a driveway to take the call, then turned around in the driveway and started back the way she had come. Two cop cars pulled her over, even though she had acted completely legally, and even more responsibly than the law (here) required. But she was driving a cheap car in a ritzy neighborhood.
I have also had numerous friends pulled over for driving while black.
Hypocrisy - I have seen way too many cop cars blow by me at high speed on the highway, run red lights, drive on the shoulder, and park in fire zones to have any respect for them.
Also, my father, a physician who worked for 35 years in an inner city hospital, depises cops. He’s seen more than his share of victims who have “resisted arrest” or who “slipped and fell” while in police custody. He recently admitted that he thinks cops are scum, which was quite a statement from a diehard conservative like my dad.
The first part would be to strike from the law books those laws which are disobeyed by a large plurality or majority of citizens. Besides a large chunk of speeding and traffic ordinances, this would also include underage drinking laws and most drug possession laws. The less conduct that actually violates the law, the less opportunity cops would have to pick and choose upon whom to enforce the law, using only their stereotypes and attitudes as a guide.
The second part would be to remake the idea of Internal Affairs. Almost exclusively, those who police the police are part of the organization they are policing, a system rife with conflicts of interest. Instead, I think that those who police the police should be in a completely separate organization.
South Florida
Sua
Policing of the cops should be done by completely independent agencies. This takes it out of the present legal ystem too. They work together way too often to get the results they need. I wonder if any group could be independent enough to oversee the police. They and their families would become targets.
Rather a lot of the distrust of authority can be summed as Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?. (Who gaurds the gaurdians?)
I dare say this sentiment has been around for a while.
Reading this thread has been depressing as hell.
If you hate the cops, the solution is to change your attitude. They are out there doing a thankless, dirty, dangerous job that can kill them in a matter of seconds. And what do they get for it? Disrespect from a lot of the public (as evidenced by posts in this thread) simply because they represent authority, not to mention low pay.
I’m not denying that there are bad cops. In every large group of people, you have a bell curve, with Real Bad being on the left, Average in the middle, and Real Good on the right. In the case of police officers, I think it’s a skewed curve that rises very sharply from the left and tapers off slowly to the right. But it does have those folks on the left, and they are the ones who piss in the pool for the rest of the officers who are trying to do the best job that they can. And unfortunately, they are the ones who are featured on the 6:00 news.
Check with your local PD and see if they have a community relations program that allows citizens to ride along with the patrol cops. Then go do it. It’ll open your eyes.
Hey, I’m all for paying them more and raising the standards of entry. That would take, I guess, tax money, well spent. Anyhow, I don’t think most people feel distrustful or lack respect for police forces “simply because they represent authority”. I was raised on Officer Friendly and Adam 12, for crying out loud. I thought cops were my friends. It’s the behavior of virtually every cop I’ve ever had to deal with that altered my perception, not some vague phobia of authority and all it represents. I’d love an authority that, when I needed some help, didn’t treat me like shit, or laugh at me for being victimized. I’d love an authority whose actions I could anticipate, that seemed consistent and congruent with basic tenents of law and ethics. The sad fact is, we’re far from being able to count on that from our police forces. Like a lot of teachers who shouldn’t be in front of a class, I suspect, as you perhaps unwittingly have alluded to, that we’re getting pretty much what we pay for out of Law enforcement. So, by all means, pay them more. Give them fantastic benefits. Make the job attract good people. All that said, the reason the badge no longer garners instant respect from me (and I’m guessing many others) is that respect has been violated, repeatedly.
I’ll see you offer of riding with them and raise you working along side of them as a paramedic.
I will also dispute the concept that they make low pay. Certainly that was historically correct, however the payscales of today (esp in the major cities) are not all that bad. Using Monster.com’s salary finder, I find that a patrol officer’s salary expectations to be close to that of a teacher, and a sgt’s to be fairly well above a teacher’s. Granted neither salary range is going to turn the recipients into millionaires, but they’re not that bad.
Nah, it’s a valid question. Someone might have personal experience that has influenced their perception on why they dislike law enforcement officers. Of course if it does out die-hard anarchist where’s the crime? Who really cares about anything anarchist have to say about law and order and how to enforce it?
Marc
Wow, that’s pretty close to the mainland Chinese stereotype. In the PRC, the smart kids from connected families get the cushy government official jobs, the dumb kids from connected families become cops. I first heard this while riding in a taxi. The taxi driver blared his horn at a cop car, made an impatient hand gesture, and started to illegally pass on the wrong side of the road. The cop pulled over to get out of the way.
You must be reading a different thread - there are plenty of posts here with specific examples of problems, and none of them involve having a ‘problem with the man’.
I’m not sure which way your ‘graph’ is meant to be skewing, but I think Least Original User Name Ever has it right when he mentions the ‘us against them’ attitude. If the ‘good cops’ you think are so prevalent want to change public opinion, they need to stop closing ranks when someone on the force is out of line. The police need to be held to a higher standard than anyone else, not be immune to the law. Having a ‘tough job’ is no excuse for anything.
It’s actually pretty standard nowadays for the responding officer to issue a “driving too fast for road conditions” ticket (which, for all intents and purposes is just a speeding ticket) to the person who causes an accident during inclement weather. Not agreeing with the practice, just pointing out that it’s common.
What color were they when not driving? 
People who don’t mind exposure to differing philosophies on subjects. Being anti-authority shouldn’t be cause to exclude someone from a discussion of about law and order.
A) State why you dislike law enforcement personnel.
I know a dozen or so cops personally. Some are great people, others should be locked up. The majority of the cops I know are genuinely good people. The few bad ones are uber bad.
B) State your method for fixing it.
Better pre-employment screening. Strict discipline for those already on the job. Get rid of the “bad apples” asap, which may be difficult due to the union.
D) If you don’t like law and order (;)), explain why.
In my perfect world, all victimless crimes would no longer be crimes. Crimes involving violence against others would have more extreme penalties.
E) Give your location (as general as you’d like), for statistics’ sake.
Western Pennsylvania
Statistically cops do not have an extremely dangerous job. No more than electricians or truckers.
http://www.justicewomen.com/police_women.html
Isn’t Police Work Dangerous?
No! It’s a tenacious and harmful myth that police work is dangerous. According to Department of Labor statistics, police work ranks relatively low on ratings of occupational fatalities. Policing has fatality rates comparable to such common occupations as electricians, construction workers, and truckers. Also contrary to common belief, half of all police on the job fatalities are caused by auto accidents, not by guns. The myth of dangerousness keeps too many women from considering police work as a career
As for authority, most cops I’ve known hate authority too. They hate internal affairs and civilian oversight committees who merely do to them what they do to the public. So you can’t expect the public to be any different. Nobody likes disciplinarians.
Raising standards for the police is a good idea though. Transparent policing which holds officers accountable and de-militarizing the police is a good idea too. Police officer pay is actually quite good in many areas, hovering in the 40-60k region.
It’s just that anarchist have such silly pie in the sky ideas about authority that is naive at best and pretty stupid at worst. Asking an anarchist about law enforcement is like asking the KKK about affirmative action or homosexual rights. What’s the point?
Marc
40k ain’t all that good anymore. 60k is better, but depends on where you are.
When I worked at a gas station I remember cops used to come in all the time, probably because they were worried about us getting robbed and wanted to protect us, but once two came in and were talking about wages. One said he made something like 26k a year and that if he had made $400 less he would’ve qualified for food stamps and welfare and that he regrets making that extra $400 because he couldn’t get gov. assistance. I don’t know if he worked full time or not, but if he did then he deserves higher than 26k.
However 40k is still a reasonably good wage. Not an amazing wage, but considering that median household income is about 45k a year that is still a respectable income.
As I’ve said on other threads, my father was a police officer, my brother is a police officer, my son is a police officer and I covered the police beat for newspapers and broadcast for more than 20 years. I’ll concede that there have been “bad cop” experiences throughout the history of modern policing, and some police departments – Los Angeles, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, Newark and Denver, at various and different times – were legendary for the graft, corruption and just plain criminal behavior of their officers.
All of that notwithstanding, I have a perception of an increase in belligerence and aggressiveness by police officers over the past two decades, and it’s neither accidental nor unwarranted.
Police departments were not prepared for the rise in violence – especially that directed toward them – that they encountered beginning in the 1960s. Cops had no idea of the rage and despair that was simmering in the ghettoes and projects of American cities. They ignored the growing passions of the anti-war movement and underestimated the persistence of the civil rights movement. When America exploded in their faces, they were completely unprepared for it. The only response they had was in kind, and Americans were fed almost a decade of images: Bull Connor’s K9 cops attacking civil rights protesters in Birmingham, Richard Daley’s storm troppers rioting in Chicago, and countless other images of nightsticks coming down on hot heads, all played against the background of burning cities and chanting mobs. Although no one ever publicly admitted it, the late 1960s was an embarrassment to professional police officials, and they took some serious steps to correct it.
In many ways, though, it was too late. Throughout the 1970s, popular culture (read “Hollywood”) routinely made cops the bad guys. And nobody deserved it less than the San Francisco PD, which was demonized for no apparent reason except that Clint Eastwood liked to shoot his Dirty Harry movies there. By the early 1980s, even the “rogue” good guy cop had fallen out of favor, and the police were seen largely as non-entities, at best, or the source of all evil.
In the meantime, Americans began to perceive the world as becoming more violent. And in some ways, it was. The rise of home-grown street gangs in the 1980s made police work increasingly dangerous. Asian mobsters and, a little later, Russian gangsters had none of the qualms about killing cops as their Irish, Italian and Jewish predecessors had. By the end of the 1980s, police officers realized they were literally at war, and there were people – a helluvalotta people – who didn’t give a good goddamn about the badge or the uniform.
Cops responded by protecting themselves. They installed shotguns in their cars, donned mirrored sunglasses to shield their eye movements, adopted more severe uniform styles and generally presented a fearless demeanor. They studied confrontation avoidance and worked hard to defuse volatile situations, but they also learned that when violence is inevitable, it’s better to give than to receive. And in the 1990s, for the first time ever, police training began to include classes in battlefield survival.
Everything since then has been escalation. As the cops felt more threatened, they took more radical steps to protect themselves; this was seen by non-police as aggression, and people began to unconsciously justify attacks against officers.
I guess my question to people who are treated rudely by cops is, “What was your demeanor?” I get stopped for speeding almost annually (because I have a lead foot and it’s 120 miles from my home to civilization) and in my encounters with state troopers, I’ve found that if I act angry and belligerent the moment they walk up, I get anger and belligerence in return. And a ticket. But the last time I got stopped, when the trooper informed me that he’d stopped me for doing 85 in a 75 mph zone, I quipped, “Wow, I have GOT to stay awake on this stretch of road.” It made him smile. I apologized for having a warped sense of humor. He said it was no problem – better than dropping F-bombs, which is what he usually got. And he reduced the violation to a 5-mph violation, saving me points and dollars.
Yes, there are bad cops in all departments. But for the most part, even good cops will respond to belligerence and hate in kind.
I don’t think that a fair analogy at all. The KKK are notorious hatemongers who will respond in a predictably biased and single-minded fashion, that adds nothing new to the discussion, in response to questions about their sworn enemies.
While it may seem a small distinction, being anti-authority doesn’t equal being anti-structure. Not all anarchists are nihilistic idealists who think the world would benefit from having absolutely no social structure at all. I think many anarchists, having given just as much thought to the topic of laws and their place in society as anyone else (and having arrived at many differing opinions), have just as much to add to the discussion as a law maker, breaker, supporter or enforcer would.