You make me feel like a natural [insert gender here]

Great Debates
21

RexDart, according to most definitions, TGs are a superset of TSes; thus, TG and TS are not totally different people. Also, not all transsexuals have had “The Operation”. These little bits of ignorance don’t help your case.

Furthermore, my prior comments, which you were responding to, referred to, in order, hermaphroditic intersexuals (who are not TG), androgen-insensitive females (who are not TG), and transsexuals. I did not mention any form of transgender other than transsexual. And now apparently have gone off to talk about nontranssexual transgenders. Why?

I would have been much happier if I had had a uterus and fallopian tubes, and if the medical science existed to make that possible I’d definitely take them up on it. And I say that as a woman.

I never claimed that “mere biology” explains the entirety of the transgender spectrum. However, I do believe that biology does explain most cases of transsexualism. Apparently, you’re not arguing otherwise, but your careless use of language – and your failure to fully comprehend the issues – prevented you from expressing this clearly.

22

KellyM, I did not at all call your entire life a “self-deceptive fantasy.” I am not at all trying to imply that you or anyone else should be a certain way, or think of themselves in a certain way in order to conform to what I or anyone else thinks. Let me explain the train of thought that led me to my previous conclusion.

Let’s say I know a person who has all the physical characteristics of a man. And he gets an operation, and becomes externally a woman (which is what you are planning to do, is it not?). That person will always be, to me, a man who became a woman, which is inherently different from someone who has always been a woman. I think it’s unfair to other people to deny them this distinction when thinking about you. That is why, to me, you would fall eternally into that “other” category. You’d be a woman, but not the same kind of woman as the other women I know.

Again, this is not in anyway meant to be critical of you or anyone else, it’s an issue of classification and description, nothing more.

Also, could you or someone else clarify for me (I sort of asked this in my first post): sex and gender are two different things, yes? I guess I’m just getting a little confused as to what and who exactly we are talking about. Maybe someone could define for me (and for the edification of anyone else reading this thread, and for the sake of clarity in further discussion) what transgendered and transsexual mean, as well as "hermaphroditic intersexuals, and, “androgen-insensitive females.”

23

Eonwe, I deny that I was ever a man. Male, in some respects, yes, but never a man.

24

Well, how do you define a man? If you know that you have never been one, you must be able to define it somehow. And I hope you would agree that just believing something does not make it so. If I told you that I knew I was a dolphin, and had been one all my life, I’m sure you’d say I was wrong, no?

Or, you might say, “sure, if you say you’re a dolphin, you’re a dolphin,” but would I ever really be a dolphin, or would I be a human who became a dolphin?

Just one bit of clarification here, as I’m sure this is encroaching on some personal territory. I’m not, and never would, question how you choose to identify yourself. I could care less, to be honest. If I met you in person, I’d like you or dislike you for who you are, regardless of what words you or I choose to describe you. By participating in this discussion I’m trying to challenge and inform my own method of describing people and putting them in neat little boxes which make it easier for me to understand them. I’m not trying to get you to change, I’m trying to bring myself to a place where I can understand you.

25

Ignorance? I think you presume too much.

Perhaps the definition of TG and TS is not fully defined, and this may cause some confusion.

Last time I checked “trans” meant “across”, or something similiar. So “transsexual” would mean “across sexes”. This would certainly imply from an interpretaion of the word itself that TS means “The Operation” has come and gone. So long as Mr. Winky is still in attendance, a man hasn’t really crossed biological gender. If you choose to define TS differently, that’s OK. Just don’t call me ignorant for using what appears to be the definition of the word.

Why? Because you said this:

You appear to be talking about all TGs at that point. I responded on that basis.

What I didn’t like about your posts is that you on separate occasions said that my viewpoints were “harmful”. I don’t care whether you meant TG, TS, or both. I happen to have a different perspective on the issue than you do, as regards the origins of a persons TG or TS status. I probably disagree with you in the method by which we arrive at our conclusions about these classes (if you want to call it a class) of people. That does not mean our ultimate opinions can’t be the same. I assure you that I am every bit as much in support of the liberation of TGs from the bounds of law as you are.

You may have the desire that the origins of TG or TS be biological, as that allows the argument “It’s not my choice, I was born this way, don’t discriminate against me for it.” I think that explanation has become popular because it tends to counter some of the most common objections to LGB&T lifestyle accomodations. It’s an argument necessary to garner sympathy with people who still consider that behaviour bad. It is not needed here. I have arrived at the “don’t discriminate for it” conclusion without needing to resort to a discussion of “fault” or “choice”. I have concluded “it’s none of my, nor the government’s, frickin’ business, and it certainly isn’t morally wrong.”

I’m sure Jerry Falwell could turn the psychological explanation for transgenderism into a “they chose this path” argument, but the explanation itself isn’t harmful. It’s quite possible to believe that status as a TG isn’t set from birth and also believe that TG people shouldn’t be harmed by government practices differentiaiting gender. I believe that. It may just be my speculation, cultivated in association with certain people (I assure you it goes beyond just a small circle of acquaintances), but I doubt the studies you refer to are much more credible than that.

To sum up, I think you’re locked into “I was born this way” mode for argumentative purposes. What I’m saying is that “I was born this way” isn’t necessary as an argument when we are among people who recognize the rights of the transgendered, people who don’t care whether they chose it, were born with it, or obtained it from external stimuli during formative years.

26

I’ve made love to women, and I’ve made love to men. After making love to my gf, I had no doubt she was a woman and not a man. The differences between man and woman are profound and yet sometimes defy any obvious definition.

27

RexDart: My reason for believing in a biological basis is based on scientific evidence, not on any argumentative basis. Until I saw the scientific studies (there are quite a few, and they are not merely anecdotal discussions between friends), I was agnostic on what caused transsexualism. I didn’t really care what causes transsexualism; I am more concerned with dealing with the fact that I am transsexual.

For the record, I don’t believe that it matters whether or not transsexualism (or anything else) is biologically caused, as far as anti-discrimination law goes. We don’t allow discrimination on the basis of religion, and I’m quite certain you can change that. If we forbid discrimination on the basis of religion, then the mutability of any other characteristic is no reason to permit discrimination on its basis, either.

The opinion you set forth I call harmful because it is the opinion that has been used and continues to be used by medical personnel and especially medical insurers to deny coverage for reassignments. Their attitude is that, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, reassignment is not an effective treatment for transsexualism. This position arises out of John Money’s faulty theory of developmental gender, which is exactly the same as the position that you put forth claiming that transgenderism develops postnatally. The bulk of the evidence is to the contrary, but we’re still struggling to set aside the prejudices laid down by previous generations. Prejudices which you, harmfully, are perpetuating.

Your definitions of transgender and transsexual are so nonstandard as to be noise words. Feel free to use them, but don’t expect anyone to communicate with you in a meaningful fashion.

28

You are ignorant for assuming that you can get the definition of the word out of the word itself and also in that you assume that the definition of the word hasn’t changed since its creation. Is that better?

Personally I argue that I was born this way because there are no other credible theories. And personal opinions based on ancedotal evidence do not make for credible theories.

29

Sterra, I am restrained by the rules of civility. Allow me to say I am angered by your and KellyM’s assertions that my usage of the words “transgendered” and “transsexual” are a sign of ignorance. I interpreted TS to mean what the word literally means if you break it down into its component parts. Then you tell me it doesn’t mean that, without defining what you think it does mean, and call me ignorant for not being familiar with your handwaving redefinition of a word? Absolutely ridiculous. If a transsexual hasn’t had sex reassignment surgery, how are they any different than a person who is transgendered and identifies with the gender opposite their biology?

I can make up a word, let’s say “rowdypoo”, and then assign it a meaning. I can then call you ignorant of it’s meaning, but that would be rather intellectually dishonest wouldn’t it?

KellyM, you continue to fault my opinion and call it harmful on the basis that it has been favored by other people to advance their own agendas. Do you denounce the opponents of abortion because the pro-life opinion has led some to conclude it’s allright to kill abortion doctors? It is the height of folly to denounce an opinion on the basis that people holding the opinion have done things you disagree with.

As for the issue itself, the origin of TG/TS/whatever-you-wanna-call-it…well, I’m a determinist. I think every state of the universe is caused by the preceding state. I’m more inclined to believe that, in general, our behaviours are determined by our past experiences, both pre and post-natal. However, I suppose the mind cannot react to anything too complex prenatally, as it isn’t really functioning in the experiential sense. Once we reach the portion of our lives in which the mind can develop, the mind reacts to stimuli in varying ways, producing various desires and behaviours in the subject.

I fail to see how any chemical, with which one has prenatal exposure, could instill any but the most instinctive and base forms of sexual identity. The presence of desires beyond that in people who are gender dysphoric (ok, is that an allright term) tells me that something else is going on here. It’s J.S. Mill’s inductive logic, look for the unexplained consequence and find the as-yet unknown cause. If you don’t know how these chemicals create the behaviours, then all these studies can be showing is correlation. Correlation is not causation.

As someone who is on your frickin’ side of the general issue of rights for the transgendered, you’re sure treating me like crap. KellyM, you go ahead and deal with your personal issues as you see fit, that’s what is important. All I ask is that you stop being insulting towards me for voicing an opinion, that I admitted from the get-go was speculative, and is not harmful in and of itself. I don’t care what other people holding the opinion are trying to do, it doesn’t affect the opinion itself one single bit.

30

Last time I checked “trans” meant “across”, or something similiar. So “transgendered” would mean “across genders”. This would certainly imply from an interpretaion of the word itself that TG means “The Operation” has come and gone. So long as Mr. Winky is still in attendance, a man hasn’t really crossed biological gender.

You could call me ignorant if I claimed I knew the meaning of the word by dissecting it and claiming that it meant rowdy poo.

31

RexDart, I called you “ignorant” because you are, as far as I can tell, parroting a theory of gender formation which is generally regarded as disproven, and because you are making up your own definitions for words which have well-established meanings. The fact that you claim to be in favor of my interests doesn’t matter to me: ignorance is ignorance, whether it lurks in your friends or your enemies. And I find it hard to count as a friend someone who refuses to even consider the current best scientific theory because it doesn’t correspond to his dogmatic beliefs about The Way The World Is.

32

Hmm. This is certainly becoming much more heated than I thought it would be.

But I, too, am not entirely clear on the distinction between a trangendered person and a transexual.

Semi-different topic–Do all men have a desire to be a woman, if only for a little bit? I know I do. I don’t mean that on a permanent basis (or maybe I do, I don’t know), but I would really, really love to know what it is like to be a woman for a while. I wish I had a machine where I could switch sexes whenever I felt like it.

I ask that question because every male I’ve ever known well enough to ask has said they would, too.

Anyway, I think that the biological distinction is an interesting way to think about sex, but as I understand it, it isn’t really entirely helpful or clear. So I am not sure I want to go that path. Socially speaking, what people would normally call “gender”, we think of a person as a male or female by all sorts of cues. How is it that we can mistake women for men, or vice versa? sometimes we feel it is a mistake. But what about times when we can’t tell, or don’t “find out” until later… were we really mistaken? Or are our ideas about gender sort of ill-conceived?

the heemlock thread really brought that to a head, and I don’t want to revisit that situation, but that situation consisted of a man who was interested in what he thought was a woman. However, if you were to ask him what made a woman, he would have said “a vagina”, which this person didn’t have… so he would have thought the person was a man. Is gender relative? I don’t want to say that, but in some respects I think it is. We have criteria that “our women” and “our men” match, and when people don’t match the criteria we restrict it to make sure they fit where we want them to.

If gender or sex were all about naughty bits, then “masculine” would be a synonym for “phallic”, I think. But it isn’t, which means that socially (on the level we think at) we attribute other traits (re: Zoggie’s thread) to “male” and “female”.

I think any way we look at it, using biology alone is a non-starter. Given that my desire to be a woman (if only for a bit, though I imagine I would really, um, enjoy it) includes and in fact demands that I am also physically one, the idea of gender in my head—the way I think about women and men—is partly rooted in parts and partly rooted in behavior. I want to do girly things, but only while a girl.

Sorry for the ramble, but this topic sort of confuses me.

33

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but I think for this conversation to continue to be productive (which I think it has been for the most part) we need working definitions of transgendered and transsexual that we can all agree on. Otherwise we’ll be debating what the “causes” are of TG and TSism without necessarily talking about the same things. So, I’ll ask again. What is a man? A woman? I think that’s truly the question hand, and I’m curious to hear what different posters have to say.

34

RexDart- I agree with KellyM that your position is harmful, though not intentionally. You agree to treat KellyM as a woman. But, your position is that she was a man who became a woman. Her position (which I agree with and will be hunting cites for in a minute) is that she was never a man.

   To state that she was a man implies choice. Choice implies that the underlying cause is purely psychollogical. That implies that therapy can make the person happy and well adjusted with their current plumbing.

All the evidence I’ve seen (again, as soon I post this I shall go cite hunting), strongly indicates that there is no choice. The male brain is indeed different from the female brain. It is possible to have a male brain in a female body and vice versa. Studies with rats and mice have resulted in exactly this.

35

From this here page

The page does not call this “final proof”. However, all the other evidence I’ve seen points to TS people having a biological basis.

36

For a good list of definitions look here

Transgendered

Transsexual

37

As for the second paragraph, I specifically addressed that exact issue in one of my posts, clearly stating that I did not think people who are TG need to be “adjusted.” I’d say that belief is part of my position. The fact that something could be altered with psychological treatment isn’t much different that the fact it could be altered by biological or genetic means. I don’t think it has to be “cured” either way, so it doesn’t particularly matter as far as the end result. Not only did I not assert the “harmful” positions you mention, I specifically denied them. I simply arrive at the denial differently.

Saying that something is psychological doesn’t imply choice at all. One can be every bit as unable to change thier psychological conditions as their biological conditions, or equally able to do so. To call something psychological isn’t to say it was chosen, I doubt that manic depressives “chose” to suffer from Bipolar Disorder.

I see definitions were finally provided as you want to use them. If you want to use definitions of words that are neither apparent from the word itself, nor in common usage, then before you go calling people ignorant try linking to those definitions you desire beforehand. I consider your continued attempts to call me ignorant an insult.

38

RexDart I am confused. What do you mean by not in common usage? I posted the definitions as they are commonly used.

39

Well…if I may interject here, with a partial answer to the question posed by the OP: If you can bear a child, you are a woman. If you can’t, you might be a man.

40

Of course, there are lots of people who cannot bear children who are still women.