YOU NONSMOKERS LEAVE ME THE HECK ALONE!

As a nonsmoker, I am thoroughly impressed by the arguments of this “troll.” Look at the facts: smoking is being persecuted like nothing else I have ever seen. Maybe if we were living in the shadow of the 3rd Reich we could hold up some “real” persecution for examination, but as a citizen of the modern world I’m a little surprised at the severety of these anti-tobacco campaigns. Of course smoking is bad for you. Of course cigarette companies exploit their consumer base–that’s what companies do. These are not secrets worth being repeated in multi-million dollar add campaigns.

It is true that smoking is unhealthful, but there is more air in the world than all the smokers could foul up. If you do not like second hand smoke, you are free to go somewhere where the air is clean, which is what I do if I’m desperate for air. I don’t see why any anti-smoking laws at all were necessary; it seems to me that the way capitalism works naturally, certain establishments would spring up to cater to nonsmoking clientelle. But what’s happenned is that the government stuck its nose into the mix and now you simply cannot be a smoker. Where are you supposed to go to smoke?

Last of all, has it ever occurred to any of you nonsmokers out there that smoking is good for society for precisely the reason that it is harmful to smokers’ health? Natural selection is an important thing. I personally would prefer it if all of the foolish people found it less difficult to remove themselves from the gene pool.
“But we have to pay for the medical care of all these smokers after they’ve given themselves cancer!” some people have said to me in the past.
My response: “No we don’t. We can let them die.”

Shall we play a game of “Spot the Logical Fallacy”?

Since when has longevity had anything to do with respect? I’ve read Wally’s posts and been entertained, informed and amused. But this is a message board and as far as I’m concerned, you are only as good as your last post. I personally don’t think Sentinel is a troll. Having read his vitriol I might feel like stabbing him in the head with a dessert spoon but, well, it’s the Pit. By definition it is where people come to vent steam; it is kinda implicit that people are going to post provocatively with the intention of drawing a response whilst in the Pit. Argue the point, offer your opinion but to pop in now and again with an unfounded DNFTT is plain stupid.

Sentinel, your basic premise is sound although the reason this thread has grown to the size it is is the way you put it across. Go ahead and smoke where it is permitted, I ain’t got no beef with it.

Thanks for the warning sentienal.
As for YB. I think you’ll get a lot farther if rather than just smiting my opinion when it doesn’t seem to your standards. Stop and think about it, try to see where its coming from see where my logic differs from yours. Try to LEARN from this difference. That is why people discuss, and debate.

Harkenbane … uh, thanks, I think. How do you feel about AIDS victims?

According to health statistics, which seem to be somewhat variable according to what disease or organization you approach, Smoking is the number one killer and alcohol is number 2.

OK.

According to some, smoking kills about 1000 people a day. Alcohol kills about 300+.

All tobacco ads have been pulled from television, most magazines and many billboards. Bars, buildings and even city streets have made smoking illegal. Hospitals have forced long time smokers to not smoke while in their care. Antismoking ads outnumber the ads for drunk driving something like two to one.

However no ads tell people A: NOT to drink forever, B: make drinking illegal, C: go into the gory and great detail about the physiological effects of heavy drinking. PLUS, the advertisement of alcohol is not banned from public view. One may turn on the television or radio and get to enjoy ads that glorify drinking, show how beautiful, intelligent, active, obviously well off, athletic and healthy people consume great amounts of specific alcohol’s.

If one drinks a certain beverage, according to the ads, one will get to be with sexy women and men. One will drive expensive, fast cars, one will be in the ‘IN’ crowd, one will be popular, healthy, snowboarding down beautiful, icy slopes, splashing in wonderful tropical waters, tossing away one’s beeper, and being the life of the party.

No sports game can function without the beer sellers. Movies glorify the act of getting blitzed – especially college ones. Beer is raised from a humble brew to the Nectar of the Gods.

Yet, alcohol is the number two killer of people in the US and probably world wide. People who are addicted to it can actually be given ‘maintenance’ dosages of it while hospitalized. People may drink in public buildings, people may drink on city streets. People may drink on aircraft. Drunks are tolerated more than smokers.

It is not politically correct to rave in fanatical zeal at drinkers, because drinking makes you feel good and most politicians knock back a lot of brew. However, it is politically correct to ridicule, humiliate, embarrass, chastise, restrict, ban, abuse, demean, malign, discredit, lambaste, inhibit and generally abuse smokers.

Currently, according to the many nonsmoking ads, it is better to be a drunk than a smoker.

Thanks for the warning sentienal.
As for YB. I think you’ll get a lot farther if rather than just smiting my opinion when it doesn’t seem to your standards. Stop and think about it, try to see where its coming from see where my logic differs from yours. Try to LEARN from this difference. That is why people discuss, and debate.

That’s what standards are for, honey! We all have our standards, why lower them? Like I said, if I think someone’s opinion is lame, or not well-thought out, I see no reason to give them respect.

Sure…uh, but that is not directly what I was discussing in my last post. You were claiming that you felt that people like Sentinel and yourself ought to get respect, I was telling you that respect is earned. You cannot expect, nor demand respect. My point was, you are an unknown quantity on this board, we know little about you. But you were not getting off to a good start by attacking a known quantity, our Esteemed Wally, who has EARNED respect. You didn’t know the history behind why Wally was fed up with Sentinel, (and I feel Wally was quite justified) and yet you went off half-cocked anyway. That did not earn my respect, or a lot of other members’ respect, let me tell you. (Though of course it could be said that my respect is anything worth having, really…;))

Sorry about he double post. I didn’t trust the code. My fault
YB. I tire of discussing this.

First of all I have been here longer than my dates show. There are many lurkers who have been around for a year or more before they sign on. Do not presume that I have not followed the wally/zentinal posts.

Second of all, if you treat every stranger you meet with out any form of respect until they earn it. I feel sorry for those who ever tried to meet you.

I’m done.

Have fun.

You treat people who are unfamiliar to you with a form of respect, called civility. When that person proves that they do not deserve a certain level of respect (and they can prove they don’t deserve it in a few sentences) then why give it to them? This does not mean I’d spit on a stranger on the street. But, if I meet a person and they are immediately rude, go off half-cocked, or whine, they are giving a bad impression, right off. Why would I treat them with the same level of respect that I would give someone who I had been familiar with for a long time, and who had proven multiple times to be worthy of much respect?

I cannot make it any clearer than that.

Prove it. Link us to some websites, show us why you believe this. You know the drill.

Why was Thought banned? Sock Puppet?

It’s Calvin and HobbEs. True, the fuzzy tiger was named after philosopher Thomas Hobbs, but the spelling as Bill Watterson presented it was Hobbes. (It’s probably the English versus Americanized spelling, who knows.)

One more time: Hobbes.

Okalie doke? Okay. Y’all resume your brick wall head bashing. Surely the wall will move sometime, right?

I have no link because it is my opinion based on years in the medical profession, reading various studies not just confined to tobacco smoke and observation. The only exception would be in the increasingly rare smoke filled rooms of old with poor ventilation.

I am allowed to have an opinion I assume.

A new antismoking ad claims there are 101 poisons in tobacco smoke. What studies, if any, have been done for pot smoke, herbal cigarettes, automobile fumes and even good old BBQ emissions. There may be 101 poisons in the smoke, but what if those stinky fumes from your car, which pass inspection, contain 201? Will you start an antiemissions rant? Fight for no emissions streets? Ban emissions within certain areas?

Everyone is jumping on smokers while virtually ignoring everything else.

You all also keep ignoring my posts concerning alcoholism. Nothing like being single minded.

I am a former smoker who quit many, many, years ago, and I’m damn glad I did. My father, unfortunately, never kicked his 50 years + smoking habit, and died of pancreatic cancer on March 16 of this year. Not many people are aware of this, but smoking is one of the main causes of this form of cancer. Dad was diagnosed with cancer last November, and it was truly horrible watching him slowly waste away. He spent a month and a half in the hospital before being sent home to die. During the last weeks of his life, he couldn’t eat, lived on a couple of cans of Ensure daily, couldn’t walk, had to wear Depends, and was in constant pain. He took so much morphine that he couldn’t sleep, and often had bizarre hallucinations. Sorry if I’m depressing all of you with this, but it’s the ugly truth. What hurt the most was seeing him cry and hearing him talk about how much he wanted to die…this man was once a proud Army Veteran and police officer. If you smokers out there can’t quit smoking for yourselves, then think of your loved ones, who will have to care for you when you do get cancer.
Think of how they will feel having to helplessly watch you suffer and die.

In my lifetime, I’ve watched many, many people die. Some went easily into that good night and some did not. Some died deaths, which to me, were absolutely horrible and back then, we were not allowed to pull the plug. I walked with many a person covered by a sheet down that long, quiet corridor to the morgue and returned alone. I was there in my hospital whites when my own father died and I prepared his body for that long, quiet trip, but would not take it with him. Instead, I let a good friend of mine accompany him to that room at the end of the hall where the stainless steel freezers lay.

I was there when men, women and children died. I was there when they passed on struggling for life from a shattered body leaking fluids on my uniform and the floor as we worked hard to keep them in this world, and failed. I saw the faces of their loved ones crumple and turn into the pain that hurts beyond all normal sensation when they were informed of the passing. I watched old women weep quietly for the passing of a husband of nigh onto 50 years and old men sob brokenly when they realized that the lovely woman they had married 40 years ago, slept in the same bed with every night, raised children with, shared hopes, dreams and joys with through good times and bad, had left them beyond all hope of ever returning.

I watched in quiet horror as an emphysemic patient slowly strangled on yellow mucous so thick that our suction pumps could not get it out of his lungs fast enough. I had a good friend in the medical field stricken with a heart attack, who read his own EKG, looked at his own urinary output while in Intensive Care and studied his own blood pressure and lab findings and I knew that he knew he was going to die and he did. I watched a pretty young Black girl die of uremic poisoning, her kidneys shutting down, no transplant available. I was there when another pretty young Black girl slowly died on the ER table from a .22 bullet in her brain – we found the entrance wound in her mouth. Her jealous boyfriend had forced her to open her mouth, shoved the gun in there and pulled the trigger. I walked her down that long corridor and left her in that stainless steel cooler.

I was there when people died of many diseases, including cancer. Those of us in the medical field know that cancer actually has a smell about it and a look, even if it has not yet been identified. I’ve had my own hands inside a living human body as men and women so much more skilled than I worked to cut away the diseased parts. I have seen the great, bloody horror of the old style prostate removal where the surgeon nearly had to eviscerate the patient to remove the cancerous gland.

I am aware of death. I am aware of cancer, of the risks I take. I am also aware of the many other risks I take because of other dangers society has forced upon me beyond criminal activities, in the area of pollution.

I have made that long trip to the room at the end of the hall many times. I have been there when the coroner opens up the sacred seals of the body and probes within to locate the cause of death.

I have been exposed to dangerous diseases in the course of my duties, exposed to deadly chemicals, been attacked, shot at, beaten up, wrecked and fallen deathly ill, worked myself into exhaustion, and became quite aware of potential of possible death. I smoke because I am addicted and I like it and it is one of the few pleasures left to me, though I know the risks.

I have worked with and on the dying for years. I have had coworkers die from various causes. I have been there when the shattered remains of people were rushed in, clinging to a flickering life that someone tried to deliberately take from them. I have also seen people at deaths door abruptly recover and leave my care to go home to their loved ones in triumph.

Not everyone who smokes will die of a smoking related disease. Not everyone who smokes is going to shorten their lives. Not everyone who smokes is going to have cancer or chronic lung disease.

I might get lucky and not have any of that.

I spent many, many years patching people up, physically and mentally. I cannot recall how many I accompanied down to the morgue. I cannot recall how many I worked for hours to save, along with the doctors and the nurses.
Now, in a much different field, I want to enjoy my tobacco and not get sneered at probably by the children of some of the people I helped keep alive so long ago.

I have been splashed with foul biological fluids, vomited on, blood spattered, hit with fecal material, urine, and pus. I have fought to restrain people out of their minds, suffered some fractures because of it and know of the darkness that can inhabit the human psyche and how what is real can become terrifyingly unreal.

I have looked into empty eyes and wild eyes, cold eyes and terrified eyes. I have seen both good and truly bad.

Now, I want to smoke my cigarettes in the legally designated places without being harassed, made fun of, picked on, humiliated or made to feel like I’m dirt.

I think I have earned that right.

While some of you were out working in offices, going to college, plotting your retirement, making corporate decisions, balancing company books, expounding wise words of philosophy and pondering the whichness of what, I was running in IVs, scraping blood and gore off of living bodies, struggling to break through to a person in a drug induced psychosis, holding people while they threw up, wearing protective clothing in infectious diseases rooms and working with tubes which drained various bodily fluids out of people.

While you were knocking back beers and bitching about the US doing something you felt they should not be doing, I was talking people out of suicide, working with depressives, trying to stabilize schizophrenics and handling group therapy. While some of you were designing parts of a building and making $40,000 a year, I was making under $20,000 and changing bandages, monitoring stryker frames, dumping drainage flasks, scrubbing for surgery, and holding people down on the ER tables.

So, if you don’t mind, with all of that in the past, I would like to smoke my evil weed in peace. I don’t think you have the right to encroach on my civil rights.

There is a very good chance that some of you are here because I was there when your mother or father needed someone. I’ve worked on thousands of people in my time.

I think I have earned my addiction and my right to smoke within the law.

You mean you’ve earned the right to be made fun of, picked on or humiliated? OK, if you insist…:wink:

Hey, smoke your brains out. I’ll leave you alone as long as you leave me alone, and leave my air alone. But don’t claim that you “didn’t know” that smoking was bad for you when you started. (Which is what you have said previously.)

“Didn’t know” = “Ignored the warnings and now has delsions that the warnings never were presented”.

Y-MOUTH (babe)

When I started smoking, there were no warnings on cigarette packs or television and such! Doctors had just begun tests with rats. What, you think they started producing smokes with warnings even as they were producing ads telling you that smoking was good for you?

DON’T claim that I stated something which I never have.

Ask any smoker from the 1960s through the early 70s if anyone warned anyone else about smoking of if warnings were publicized.

I started a thread on Straight Dope a few months ago about this…when did the warnings about cigarettes become well known? I thought The Straight Dope would be a good place to ask, seeing as so many of the members are well-rounded people with all sorts of info on various things! I knew that I had distinct memories from childhood, I wanted to make sure my memories were not unique.

The answers I got (from multiple Dopers) was this:

The Surgeon General declared them dangerous in the early '60s. I remember the ads being banned from TV when I was a small girl, so that must have been late '60s, early '70s. I also remember the information about the risks of cigarettes being around a while before the ads were banned from TV. And hey, I was a kid and all this made an impression on me! Another doper has discovered many Reader’s Digest articles starting in the '50s declaring the dangers of cigarettes. Don’t tell me you never cast your eyes upon a Reader’s Digest ever during your youth. If it was in the Reader’s Digest, for crying out loud, it wasn’t a secret.

I think that the archives of old SDMB threads have been lost since the software transition, but I guess I should look anyway, and attempt to find this old thread. Or, I’d be happy to start a new thread and ask the question again.

I’ll say it again: “Didn’t know” = “Ignored the warnings and now claims that the warnings were never presented.”

Well! That was easy!

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=12890

On this thread somebody provided this link:

http://www.oralchelation.net/heartdisease/ChapterFive/page5e.htm

The first line says this:

Also, according to Doper Pundit:

I have no reason to doubt this information. Unless you are now going to claim that you couldn’t read English and therefore did not see the the warning label on each cigarette package…

Sentinel: What do I think of AIDS victims? In general, I do not care. In specific, I ask a simple question–have they contracted the disease as a result of their own foolish and gluttonous attitudes towards sex or drugs? In this case, I do care, but only inasmuch as I laugh.

“I was lonely… I needed a woman…”
Die!
“I just met her that night… She said she was clean…”
Die, fool, die!
“I would have used a condom, but I’d run out the week before…”
Hahahahaha!

Now, Sentinel, that little foray into the macabre aside, as far as no one responding to your alcohol arguments, it’s obvious why people aren’t arguing with you about that. It is because you are right. People on this forum are all too happy to argue with you as a “troll” (frequently forgetting the purpose of the BBQ Pit) when you are wrong, and they have often said wise and enlightening things while doing this–good job YosemiteBabe–as well as inane and pointless things, like how you fail to spell “Phil” or “Hobbes” correctly. The sorry thing is how few of them acknowledge when you do make a valid point, since, as I am a fellow nonsmoker, they seem to be my peers and thus represent me in this thread.

Now speaking on this subject… YosemiteBabe, respect is certainly something which should be earned, especially from a “newbie” such as myself. Wally is not earning this respect, and instead chooses to behave in a thoroughly contemptible manner. I am disinterested in his former record. Repeatedly posting “Do Not Feed The Troll” is one sure way of feeding trolls. It is another way of showing that you are incompetent. Wally… a thought is coming to me, and it must be an extremely complex one, else you would surely have realized it yourself… it’s coming… wait… it’s… “Go away if you are bothered by the troll.” He is not knocking on your door to yell at you; he is posting on a message board. There is a marked difference–figure it out. I say again: If you cannot abide by the heat of the BBQ Pit, go away.

Last of all, Pldennison, complaining about someone’s disinterest in spelling or propensity towards profanity likewise earns you few points. (And as long as you are complaining about spelling, shouldn’t it be “sites, boy, sites,” and not “cites, boy, cites?” It means very little to me, but I’d leave spelling out of your future arguments, were I you.) Furthermore, as an asthmatic, I am unsympathetic towards the plight of your dear wife and her unwillingness to visit your likewise dear mother. Just because you have a weakness doesn’t entitle you to expect that everyone else around you will make this weakness their primary concern. If your mother or her boyfriend is smoking their very own house up, maybe it is because they are disinterested in seeing you and your wife, and have found an indirect way of expressing this to you. Or do you now dispute your mother’s right to contaminate air which, one would assume, belongs exclusively to her?

Harkenbane, who apparently has less grasp of English than he would imagine, says:

Pssst . . . hey, stupid . . . look here:

cite (st)
v. tr. cit·ed, cit·ing, cites.

**To quote as an authority or example. **
To mention or bring forward as support, illustration, or proof: cited several instances of insubordinate behavior.
To commend officially for meritorious action in military service.
To honor formally.
To summon before a court of law.

“Cite” is a commonly-accepted shorthand for “citation,” as in “provide cites,” you fucking idiot.