Within your post, bolded by me, is exactly what I’ve said since the first…
I swear, some atheists have no balls. Why all the coy games and demure hints? Why not just come out and say, “I don’t want to discuss this. Do you understand what I am saying to you? If you raise the topic again, I’ll call your employer.”
…and exactly what I just said…
In other words, if it was worth a rant here, then it was worth a rant there.
So, why are you arguing with me?
A good friend of mine is a JW. I drink beer with him frequently. He’s never tried to witness to me, or even discussed religion or his beliefs with me. I haven’t read this whole thread, so I may be out of line, but I just know when the subject of JW’s comes up, a lot of people have prejudicial stereotypes about them. JW’s, in my experience, being the ones at my door, have never been anything but cordial and friendly.
Now the Southern Baptists, on the other hand…
Oh, I see what you mean.
In that case, as others have pointed out, they might well feel justified by being ranted at, and revealing one’s atheism might mark you out as a “possible future convert” in their perverse little minds, whereas a simple barefaced lie like “I’m Jewish” could deny them any perceived martyrdom and make you safely off-limits forever more.
I have two extremely friendly dogs that, despite training and shouts of “NO!” that they would otherwise obey, still insist on enthusiasticaly greeting and jumping on any visitors to the house. It’s a Portie breed trait that supposedly can’t be trained out of them; they’re extremely people-oriented working dogs that want to be as close to someone as possible. Especially Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Trying to pitch the Watchtower while an extremely happy Guinness is running circles and jumping towards you, bringing random toys and shoving them into your hand, with Bailey sniffing and licking the contents of the standard accompanying SUV stroller, is more than most JWs can handle.
Incorrect. They don’t believe in the trinity but they do believe in the divinity of Jesus.
That is a good one for the Mormans. What “other books” do the JWs have that add to the Bible?
Haj
From their own web site:
“Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him”
“Christ was first of God’s creations”
“Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person”
And in this reference it is explicitly stated: “The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be.”
Wasn’t there a movie about the OP several years ago? I think Jim Carrey was in it.
Cable Guy I think it was.
As a point of fact, if they call themselves Christians, then they are. Who gave you the right judge them? “Well, you’re not real Christians, my little group of course is, and I’m not sure about the Catholics”. If someone believes he’s following the teachings of Christ and calls himself a Christian, guess what? He is! Isn’t it wonderful to be able to determine one’s own faith and not to have someone else force you into their little box?
Apart from doorstep encounters, I can’t say I have had any bad experiences with JWs. I worked with one once and he did bring it into conversation sometimes, but not in a pushy way. It was more to do with how it helped put him on what he saw as the straight-and-narrow, after a youth dedicated to ‘fornication’ in his words.
My sister has a very good friend who is a JW and is very protective of her when people make disparaging remarks:
Sis: I saw H today, she’s been a bit depressed lately.
Dad: Why? Does she need a blood transfusion?
Sis: Fuck off Dad (or words to that effect).
Well, they can CALL themselves that. But every other Christian denomination believes in the divinity of Christ. Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist,…etc. ad infinitum. This is THE core of the Christian faith. To deny it makes you a non-Christian. I’m not saying that there isn’t a possiblity that their interpretation is correct, I’m just saying that their definition of Christianity goes against every single other sect of Christianity.
This is like Lincoln’s question: If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? The answer is 4- calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one.
Not to get Clinton on you but it depends on which definition of divine you use. Yes, Jesus is considered to be inferior to God but he is considered to be divine as in “godlike” and “supremely good.” They do not believe that he was a mere mortal. They are trying very hard to get to the roots of Christianity. They feel like they are theologically the closest to how the original Christians (Christian Jews) were. An argument can be made that they are correct too.
Haj
Look, I can call a hammer a “divine instrument of love” but if I use it to beat someone’s brains in, we’re not just talking about a true scotsman argument. It’s safe to say that some christians are definitely quite selective about what they believe, to the point of tarnishing the name christianity itself, unless we note that they really aren’t christians.
Actually the defining characteristic of a Christian is the acceptance of Jesus as one’s saviour. You don’t have to believe he was divine, just that he died for your sins and was a rather nice fellow.
I have two methods for dealing with JWs and Mormons.
I point out that I’m about as likely to change my religion because two strangers asked me to as I am to stop using narcotics because urinal mats tell me to. if you don’t know what I’m talking about, the little rubber mats in urinals down here in Florida usually bear Reaganesque messages like “Don’t do Drugs!” I don’t know if this is a regional thing or not
I like to play them off against one another. “Oh, hey guys. I became a Mormon last week because they offered free oil changes. What can you do for me?”
Oddly enough, a JW would make the exact same argument.
Haj
Bullshit. Beliefs are nebulous, intangeable ideas and differ from person to person, and thus are defined by each individual. Tails and legs are concrete, solid items that are the same to everyone. YOU don’t get to determine anything about someone else’s beliefs. The most you can do is distance yourself from their beliefs by saying “I’m not that kind of a Christian, I have different beliefs”. If there is one thing to look forward to in an afterlife, it’s gonna be God kicking the arrogant asses of many people who call themselves “Christian” today. I can see it now, God thundering at the fundies: “WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, TELLING ME HOW I HAVE TO ACT???” while welcoming a pagen into heaven.
Actually, I did this once, to a Mormon I think. He pointed to a verse in the Old Testament (Isaiah or Ezekiel I think, I’m too lazy to look it up) which says something similar. “So wouldn’t that invalidate the New Testament?” he asked me.
“Yes, it would,” I replied. Then I shut the door.
They don’t have those out here in California, but I wish they did. That’s one message I’d love to piss all over.
This is the argument of the heap. I don’t believe in God. If I call myself a Christian, does that mean I’m a Christian? Isn’t calling myself that disingenuous, at least, considering the common usage of the word? What if I call myself a Christian Muslim?
Just because Christianity isn’t a strongly criterial group doesn’t mean that a simple declaration is all you need.
JWs don’t reject the divinity of Jesus. They reject the notion that Jesus is himself God, as Jesus himself did while he walked the Earth:
–Matthew 23:9;
John 5:19-20, 6:38, 7:16, 8:42, 14:10;
Luke 4:43,
Jesus worked and still works under the auspecies of and as a messenger of God, but Jesus himself is not God. Most every prayer by a JW usually end “In Jesus’s name, Amen.”
Honestly, I’m not sure how I would handle this. I could speculate we’d have a close enough relationship so it wouldn’t play a major issue between us though.
