You Subhuman Savages (Iraq Rant Ahead)

[sailor]

Brutus, coming from you those words are a compliment because, as divided as the board is on other issues, there’s quite a general consensus that you are an idiot.

@gobear

Can we ship Sailor to Iraq? He’s made it clear which side he is on.

By the same reasoning, can we ship you to Iraq? We also know what side you are on. Why aren’t you in Iraq fighting? What’s that got to do with anything?

@Una Persson

Why are you putting “contractors” in quotes? What is your implication?

My implication is that the “contractors” killed in that incidend were actually mercenaries fighting for the USA and the US government has invented this lie about them being “contractors” to make it sound like they were painting schools or something. This has been discussed in other threads in great depth so I won’t go into it any further. Those people were not the type of “contractors” the US government wants us to believe. And I can see their lies do work because a lot of people still do not know what those “contractors” were really doing. They were a fighting force for Uncle Sam. You mention engineers but I was referring specifically about the incident where some contractors were killed in their vehicles just a few days ago, and some threads popped up to decry it.

Are you serious, sailor? The outrage has been smeared across this Board, in every forum, every day, including drive-by posts in GQ that should be getting more people warned and banned than are right now.

The outrage in general terms about the immorality and stupidity of this war but show me where any of the people who have opened threads to decry specific incidents of non-Iraqi deaths (or even non-deaths as is this case) have opened a thread to specifically and particularly decry actions by US forces which have resulted in the death of many innocents, including women and children. If they exists I must have missed them. where is the outrage about those actions? from those who are so concerned with human dignity and life? Because for every non-Iraqi death there have been hundreds of innocent Iraqis killed.

As an aside: some keep saying “no one has been burnt alive yet”, while others refer to foreigners being burnt alive. Which is it? If two men say they’re Jesus, one of them must be wrong.

Una, I get the impression you did not read the thread in any detail. No one here has claimed AFAIK, that the hostages have been burnt, only that the Iraqis holding them are threatening with doing it. See? That’s the problem with communication. You don’t have to say something for people to get the wrong impression. Just mention two things in the same breath and people draw their own conclusions which can be totally wrong. Bush has been mentioning Saddam + terrorism + 9/11 together and many Americans believe Saddam was behind 9/11. Someone mentions Iraqis and burning people together and someone understands that is what some Iraqis did. Please read the thread carefully because it has been explained several times that it is a threat so far and I do not thing anyone so far has claimed that it happened. So please let’s get our facts straight before getting into debates.

And finally, we all agree executing these hostages would be terribly wrong and we are hoping it will not happen.

[sailor]

@Una Persson

And I don’t mean to pick on sailor, as he’s a guy I like personally (although I disagree with him politically), but for some reason I was made especially cranky this morning by “contractors” and in the context it was used.

Thanks for the compliment and I have to say I have great respect for you too. As far as disagreeing politically, IIRC, you and I agree on pretty much everything except, apparently, this war. It’s just that this war has taken such prominence. But IIRC, until the war started, you and I used to be pretty much always on the same side of political arguments. See what Bush has done? He has made me disagree with you. It’s all his fault.

[elucidator]

Damn, Gobear, never mind the shower, you shouldn’t post before your meds kick in. You got some kind of Jackal/Hyde thing going on, you post pretty reasonably for a while, then something hits your hot button and you lose it. Either that or you just plain fling it out the friggin’ window. What is this shit?

First off, in case its escaped your notice, all that’s happened so far is that they have threatened to committ a ghastly act. Not nice, and nobody says otherwise. But get a grip, guy.

“…why are the Iraqis painted as doe-eyed innocents?..”

Cite? Even remotely? Is there even such a thing as “the Iraqis”? Keeping in mind that the nation conveniently referred to as “Iraq” was a fiction in the first instance, a state created by western white men drawing lines on a map. You are stern and righteous in condemning behavior you have yet to show even exists.

“…3. Why is the US painted as evil invaders, when the war could have been avoided if Saddam Hussein had simply cooperarted with the UN?..”

Huh? Wha? Is this the same gobear? Do you really believe this? You recall, I am sure, that Saddam offered a last-minute bargain that included just about everything up to and including kissing GeeDubya’s butt in Macy’s window at high noon. Richard Perle, I’m sure you will recall, rejected it without so much as passing the issue on. “Evil”, no. “Invaders”, well, yeah, I mean, there they are, aren’t they?

And finally, your suggestion about shipping Sailor to Iraq for presumably traitorous remarks…just plain floors me. Words fail when exposed to such blithering, self-righteous horseshit.

[gobear]

By the same reasoning, can we ship you to Iraq? We also know what side you are on. Why aren’t you in Iraq fighting? What’s that got to do with anything?

My point is that you go beyond disagreeing with the actions of the government to wishing harm to American troops. That’s repulsive.

And I did volunteer for the military out of high school in 1979 and they turned me down because of my uneven back.

I don’t think they’d take me now at 42.

I’m not all unhappy that we invaded Iraq to eliminate Saddam’s mad regime; I’m angry because Bush deliberately lied to America and to the world by using forged evidence of WMDs to do so. I’m also angry becaue Bush and Rumsefeld have tried to remake a country on the cheap with incompetent adminstrators. If we had out the effort in to clean up Iraq, get the electricity and water on, allowed real Iraqi input and had given the Iraqis a feeling of investment in their own future, we would not now be in the mess we are in now.

[Ale]

@TeaElle

You’re so hot on getting all foreign mlitary and nationals out of Iraq? I’ve supported our efforts to bring modernization and democracy to your ungrateful nation up to now, but I’m starting to think that you have a point. We should leave. We should all pack up and go away. In fact, the entire rest of the planet needs to start acting as if that anarchic little corner in which you reside simply does not exist.

Let’s see how long you and yours can get by without anybody’s help, as your selfish, brutal, tribal, feudal ways accelerate the seemingly inevitable civil war and the Sunnis and Shiites and Kurds and whoever else wants to put a dog in the fight decimate one another over and over until nothing is left.

You don’t deserve anyone’s help, not when you do things like this. You deserve whatever hellish nightmare you make of your barren little sandpit.

Seems to me that you were not adressing just the “Mujahedeen Squadrons”.

[sailor]

@gobear

My point is that you go beyond disagreeing with the actions of the government to wishing harm to American troops. That’s repulsive…

No, what is fucking repulsive is that you try to smear me with your lies. Where have I wished harm to American troops? Where the fuck you liar? Where? Please show me the post you lying scumbag.

I have said many times that I consider American troops as much innocent victims of this war as the Iraqis. So stop fucking lying. If you have any decency you will retract what you said.

[elucidator]

“My point is that you go beyond disagreeing with the actions of the government to wishing harm to American troops. That’s repulsive…”

Certainly would be. If he had. Which he didn’t.

Place one hand around neck. Grip firmly. Place other hand on buttocks. Apply as much force as possible in opposing directions until you hear a cork-popping noise. That’ll be your head, emerging.

(I honestly don’t get it, gobear. You go along pretty rational for a while then suddenly your evil twin grabs the controls…)

[Desmostylus]

@Una Persson

Why are you putting “contractors” in quotes? What is your implication?

I wonder how many people here on the SDMB actually knew any of the contractors who have been killed?

I don’t know any who’ve been killed, but I do know a couple of engineers who are working over there. When I heard the news that four “civilian contractors” had been killed, the very first thing I did was to find out who they worked for. In order to establish whether or not they worked for the company that the guys I know worked for, and so whether it could be them.

I had a very worrying time until I found out that the guys worked for Blackwater and that they were mercs. I was then extremely pissed that all of the initial news reports had repeated the “civilian contractor” stuff, because it was obviously and deliberately designed to cause exactly the reaction that I first felt - “shit, are these guys the people that I know, who got suckered into going over there”.

The term “civilian contractor”, whilst strictly being strictly correct terminology for the 4 who were killed, was deliberately misleading and offensive in ways I’m still having trouble coming to terms with.

[sailor]

@TeaElle

You’re so hot on getting all foreign mlitary and nationals out of Iraq? I’ve supported our efforts to bring modernization and democracy to your ungrateful nation up to now, but I’m starting to think that you have a point. We should leave. We should all pack up and go away. In fact, the entire rest of the planet needs to start acting as if that anarchic little corner in which you reside simply does not exist.

No, America needs to stop telling “the entire rest of the planet” what they should do and it should stop imposing “modernization and democracy” (code for occupy and plunder).

Let’s see how long you and yours can get by without anybody’s help, as your selfish, brutal, tribal, feudal ways accelerate the seemingly inevitable civil war and the Sunnis and Shiites and Kurds and whoever else wants to put a dog in the fight decimate one another over and over until nothing is left.

That is pretty arrogant. They have lived quite a few centuries without American help. I think they should be able to get by.

You don’t deserve anyone’s help, not when you do things like this. You deserve whatever hellish nightmare you make of your barren little sandpit.

Again, we condemn a whole people for the actions of a few. Do all Americans deserve punishment for the actions of a few in the government?

[elucidator]

Hello? Yes, is this “Chill Pills 'R Us?” Listen, do you offer any sort of discount for bulk orders?..

[ralph124c]

I think that if these unfortunate hostages are harmed, then that should be a signal for the world to simply leave Iraq to its fate. I have seen so many apologists for Islam …but as has been pointed out, it was not Christians and Jews (or Buddhists or Hindus) who flew planes into the WTC, planted bombs on Spanish trains, and firebombed a disco in Bali. We might as well be honest about it-there is a signoificant number of people(who are Muslims) who believe this nonsense about “jihad”.So for those of you who are moslems, please tell me who the decent moslems are, who condemn these horrible deeds?
Oh yes, Ithink the war in Iraq is a mistake…lets get OUT without delay!

[calm_kiwi]

@elucidator

Hello? Yes, is this “Chill Pills 'R Us?” Listen, do you offer any sort of discount for bulk orders?..

If only Sadam had taken up yoga not torture and Bush jnr didn’t have Bush snr to live up to.

[gobear]

@elucidator

Damn, Gobear, never mind the shower, you shouldn’t post before your meds kick in.

Haven’t we talked about stigma on folks who have mental illness. I don’t, but I work with people who do, and comments like that hurt their chances of being accepted as regular folks.

You got some kind of Jackal/Hyde thing going on, you post pretty reasonably for a while, then something hits your hot button and you lose it. Either that or you just plain fling it out the friggin’ window. What is this shit?

Where is it written that I’m the only person in this forum not allowed to be angry or to have hot buttons?

First off, in case its escaped your notice, all that’s happened so far is that they have threatened to committ a ghastly act. Not nice, and nobody says otherwise. But get a grip, guy.

Threatening to burn people alive is a little worse than “not nice.” But perhaps they’re bluffing–let’s hope so.

“…why are the Iraqis painted as doe-eyed innocents?..”

Cite? Even remotely? Is there even such a thing as “the Iraqis”? Keeping in mind that the nation conveniently referred to as “Iraq” was a fiction in the first instance, a state created by western white men drawing lines on a map. You are stern and righteous in condemning behavior you have yet to show even exists.

Say what? Do you forget the murders, rapes, and other atrocities committed by Iraqi troops in Kuwait during Gulf War I? Do you forget the atrocities visitied upon Iranians from 1980 to 1988, including the use of gas warfare?

Your rhetoric here reminds me of visting the Peace Museums in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. In both places, the exhibit texts describe the bombings as sudden, out-of-the-blue attacks, omitting any mention of WWII or the difficult moral equation of boming many civilians now or kill many more civilians and soldiers in bloody island to island conquest. THis war has context tha tmany people seem oblivious to. And yes, there is such a thing as an Iraqi.

“…3. Why is the US painted as evil invaders, when the war could have been avoided if Saddam Hussein had simply cooperated with the UN?..”

Huh? Wha? Is this the same gobear? Do you really believe this? You recall, I am sure, that Saddam offered a last-minute bargain that included just about everything up to and including kissing GeeDubya’s butt in Macy’s window at high noon. Richard Perle, I’m sure you will recall, rejected it without so much as passing the issue on.

No, Saddam was playing insincere games up to the very last. I don’t know where you’re getting your recollections from. He could have avoided the sanctions and the war by cooperating with the UN inspectors. Mind, that would have required him to not be Saddam, so it’s a moot point. And, to be fair, Bush and company were detemined to invade no matter what. Still, Saddam’s misfortunes were largely of his own making.

“Evil”, no. “Invaders”, well, yeah, I mean, there they are, aren’t they?

We were suppose to be liberators, but, sadly, we have, indeed, become invaders.

And finally, your suggestion about shipping Sailor to Iraq for presumably traitorous remarks…just plain floors me. Words fail when exposed to such blithering, self-righteous horseshit.

I support Sailor in his anger agaisnt the actions and sheer incompetence of the Bush regime. I applaud his rhetoric against a war machine that neglects to care for the people it has taken into its charge. I object to his infernal glee at the prospect of US soldiers and civilian contractors (or even “contractors”) dying. That offends me. YMM obviously V. To paraphrase Patrick Henry, “If that be blithering, self-righteous horseshit, make the most of it!”

[Desmostylus]

@ralph124c

I think that if these unfortunate hostages are harmed, then that should be a signal for the world to simply leave Iraq to its fate. I have seen so many apologists for Islam …but as has been pointed out, it was not Christians and Jews (or Buddhists or Hindus) who flew planes into the WTC, planted bombs on Spanish trains, and firebombed a disco in Bali. We might as well be honest about it-there is a signoificant number of people(who are Muslims) who believe this nonsense about “jihad”.So for those of you who are moslems, please tell me who the decent moslems are, who condemn these horrible deeds?
Oh yes, Ithink the war in Iraq is a mistake…lets get OUT without delay!

And it wasn’t actually Iraqis who flew the planes in the WTC, either. The Iraqis who are currently giving the US grief weren’t doing that until the US invaded Iraq, killed some 10,000 or so of them, then started going door-to-door and “disappearing” people.

Bush constantly blathers about people “hating freedom”, when what he really means is people “hating the stupid shit that Bush is doing”.

He’s managed to enrol a truly fucking enormous number of people who hate Bush’s “freedom” .

[sailor]

@gobear

I support Sailor in his anger agaisnt the actions and sheer incompetence of the Bush regime. I applaud his rhetoric against a war machine that neglects to care for the people it has taken into its charge. I object to his infernal glee at the prospect of US soldiers and civilian contractors (or even “contractors”) dying. That offends me. YMM obviously V. To paraphrase Patrick Henry, “If that be blithering, self-righteous horseshit, make the most of it!”

I get really tired of this. Please show me a post where I express “glee at the prospect of US soldiers and civilian contractors (or even “contractors”) dying”. Where? Where?

I am sick and tired of people making false accusations. How about some copy and paste?

[duffer]

@sailor

AFAIK, nobody has been burnt alive yet. .

Hey, America-hater, could I speak to over here for just a sec? Listen, do you remember the contractors burned alive, then mutilated, then hanged from bridges and dragged through the streets? Did you happen to catch the news today (Apr 9, 2004) of the 9 burned alive in Baghdad?

Go away. We know you hate America. We know you side with torturous sects, you’re really not helping in this debate. The fact that some animals want to burn at the stake a 19 year old Japanese girl because whe wanted to help their children is deplorable. What’s worse is you’re defending them.

Oh, and have you forgotten that one year ago today we were shown crowds of Iraqi’s dancing on the toppled Saddam statue? There are many more glad to have us there than not. The difference is they don’t have the power to stop the menace and therefore need us there.

Hope you remember this when you go to bed tonight not haveing to fear rape/murder squads roaming the streets with no fear of reprisals.

[Desmostylus]

gobear: You got the “blithering, self-righteous horseshit” part right.

There’s really only room on the board for one schizoid loon, and Lib’s already filled that position. Relax, dude. Take the chill pill.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Desmostylus

I had a very worrying time until I found out that the guys worked for Blackwater and that they were mercs. I was then extremely pissed that all of the initial news reports had repeated the “civilian contractor” stuff, because it was obviously and deliberately designed to cause exactly the reaction that I first felt - “shit, are these guys the people that I know, who got suckered into going over there”.

The term “civilian contractor”, whilst strictly being strictly correct terminology for the 4 who were killed, was deliberately misleading and offensive in ways I’m still having trouble coming to terms with.

Okay, I’m just trying to understand this. You’re saying the four guys were mercenaries. This term I’m guessing is reserved for employees who are hired for their technical combat skills. Correct? It can also be applied to employees of companies who hire out to provide security for other organizations. Correct? For example some company wants to provide security for their topnotch engineers and employees might hire out Blackwater. Right? Does that make these Blackwater people combatants in the service of Uncle Sam? And does their occupation mitigate the horror and the condemnation that the perps deserve?

[calm_kiwi]

@duffer

Hey, America-hater, could I speak to over here for just a sec? Listen, do you remember the contractors burned alive, then mutilated, then hanged from bridges and dragged through the streets? Did you happen to catch the news today (Apr 9, 2004) of the 9 burned alive in Baghdad?

Go away. We know you hate America. We know you side with torturous sects, you’re really not helping in this debate. The fact that some animals want to burn at the stake a 19 year old Japanese girl because whe wanted to help their children is deplorable. What’s worse is you’re defending them.

Oh, and have you forgotten that one year ago today we were shown crowds of Iraqi’s dancing on the toppled Saddam statue? There are many more glad to have us there than not. The difference is they don’t have the power to stop the menace and therefore need us there.

Hope you remember this when you go to bed tonight not haveing to fear rape/murder squads roaming the streets with no fear of reprisals.

Do you feel this much remorse over the nightly news headlines “Quite a few Iraqis died today” or is it just the “In much more imporatnt news, an American stubbed his toe” that gets you?

NO ONE thought what happened to the contractors was a vaguely good thing, it would seem that those 4 deaths have been paid back 5-fold now though.

Where does it end? They kill 2 of yours. You kill 10 of theirs. They get pissed off and kill 10 of yours. You get more pissed off and kill 50 of theirs?

Yes it smells like freedom and liberation. I feel much safer as a result.

[sailor]

@grienspace

Okay, I’m just trying to understand this. You’re saying the four guys were mercenaries. This term I’m guessing is reserved for employees who are hired for their technical combat skills. Correct? It can also be applied to employees of companies who hire out to provide security for other organizations. Correct? For example some company wants to provide security for their topnotch engineers and employees might hire out Blackwater. Right? Does that make these Blackwater people combatants in the service of Uncle Sam? And does their occupation mitigate the horror and the condemnation that the perps deserve?

We have had several threads about this and I suggest you read them and post there rather than hijack this thread with something which has been debated elsewhere. The fact is they were US soldiers in all but in name. They were providing armed force for the protection of a convoy supplying military forces. Call them contractors if you like but they were combatants for the USA, paid by the USA, carrying out military operations for the USA. I will refrain from mentioning ducks and quacks but you get the idea.