You Subhuman Savages (Iraq Rant Ahead)

The BBQ Pit
121

This is the kind of slippery logic I find uniquely disgusting. Sure, the Japanese forces are being attacked, but that’s because they’re fucking occupying a foreign country. The justification of armed self-defense would hold a lot more water if the Iraqi army had invaded and occupied Japan, but in this case it’s pure arrogance.

Not that I think such arrogance is the exclusive provenance of the Japanese; using ‘self-defense’ to justify invasion and occupation is a long and proud tradition on the part of the militaristic right. The US is just as guilty of it as any other regional or global power.

122

I find it interesting that the *story you link to reports * that insurgents are using civilians for cover, and firing from mosques and public buildings… and you chose not to mention this.

Why not?

And who’s worse? Them for using women and children for cover, or us for not immediately withdrawing instead of shooting back?

123

They should come out into the open and fight like men?
How stupid do you think they are?

124

…and therein lies the rub.

I was against this war. Still am. Still think it was a horrible bloody mess, a waste of time, money, and lives.

And if we bug out… hell, if we lose… it will have been even more so. Furthermore, it will be a vindication of what Osama Bin Laden has said all along: hit the Americans hard enough, and they’ll turn tail and run. It will be proof that all the Middle East needs to do is kick us in the nads, good and hard, and they can win. No matter what.

And if they think that, then every embassy… every American installation, every American investment… hell, every American… anywhere in the world… becomes a target.

Perhaps turning Fallujah into a graveyard won’t solve anything. Perhaps it won’t stop the craziness. Perhaps it won’t make anyone think twice about slaughtering any Americans they happen to find.

…but it might.

And if it does not stop the berserko Islamic fundamentalists… well… it might influence the saner ones to restrain their crazier brethren, lest the Americans carpetbomb them back into the stone age.

Barbaric? Well, yes. It is.

All hail Bush. All hail Ashcroft.

125

Well, no, but if the Iraqi resistance is using civilians for cover, and firing from public buildings, then civilians are going to get killed, and at least some of the responsibility has to fall on the Iraqi fighters for that. It’s not like US troops are going around killing innocent Iraqi civilians for the fun of it.

126

The US is worse. Much worse. I suppose You would think it is okay in a hostage situation to blow up the hostages with the hostage-takers. I don’t. The fact that they are using civilians for cover does not entitle a civilised nation to kill the civilians. What is the rush to get into Fallujah? To punish those who killed four Americans? And that can’t wait? It deserves killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis. I can’t think of anything more barbaric.

Not to mention the fact that the USA has invaded their country which they are defending.

The thought that US troops have such a right to enter Fallujah that it deserves the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians is, frankly, disgusting.

127

So, sailor, what did you have in mind? Instead of keep harping on the blame of Americans, pray, tell us what you, in all your wisdom, would do?

Withdraw, and risk killing non-muslims all over the world? Including NON-Americans? I know you don’t care much for Americans, See: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4696241&postcount=3
but think of other people, will you?

WAIT. Before you’ll tell us: “It wasn’t ME, who said that about Americans” Let me then ask you WHY you posted that. Silly prejudices. huh.

[btw: I’m against this war. As I am against all wars]

128

I don’t really have time right now to respond to everything said, but I’ll respond to this.

Sure! I’d be honored. :slight_smile:

129

Gobear’s gay? Who knew? Say, do these slacks go with this shirt?

130

I notice TeaElle, the OP, while getting very hot under the collar because some Iraqis are threatening to do bad things (which I do not condone BTW) is quite silent regarding the killings of hundreds of civilians by American troops in Fallujah. So the mere threat by Iraqis deserves a pit thread becasue they are subhuman savages but the actual killings by Americans. . . well, that’s understandable because this is war. I find that pretty disgusting.

And while we are on the topic. . . What’s the deal with American troops allowing women and children to leave Fallujah but not men of military age? WTF? What is the rationale? They are planning on rounding them up later? For what? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to leave if they are not fighting? These tactics are converting Iraq into Israel on the Euphrates.

131

No. In an ideal world, I’d wave my magic wand, make all the hostages disappear and reappear in their own homes, disarm the hostage takers, and round 'em up for trial. Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced my magic tinkus.

I’m sure the Russians felt very similarly when that theatre debacle went over in Russia recently. But I’m also very aware that they were thinking better to lose half the hostages than to lose all of them. Perhaps you had rather they simply capitulated to the terrorists? If you have any workable alternatives, I’m certain all of us in this thread would love to hear them. Bearing in mind, of course, a simple lesson of history: Once you pay danegeld, you NEVER GET RID OF THE DANE.

Again, what alternative do you propose? At this point, the only alternative I can see is to simply withdraw and pretend it never happened, which would be the same as inviting further insanity and barbarism, which I thought you were against.

Wait for what, precisely? For the murderers and rioters to get seized by pangs of guilt and give themselves up? Considering that these people are using their own neighbors as human shields, I think we might be waiting a very long time.

Then simply wait until we leave the country. I’m quite certain you’ll see plenty of things far more barbaric than anything we’ve done yet, only now it will be totally okay, because the Iraqis will be doing them to each other.

Not to mention the fact that the USA has invaded their country which they are defending.

Ah. They were defending their country by attacking a vehicle full of civilians, dragging them through the streets, and then having a block party with mutilated corpses as decorations. I’ll be sure and keep that in mind next time I throw a party…

It does not “deserve” the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians. Surely, the criminals in question could save all those lives by giving themselves up, or simply running away. It would seem they’re not inclined to do so. But, again, until you, in your great wisdom, provide some functional alternative, there’s not much we can do about it, is there?

132

from page 1:

Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying you supported the war originally because you thought we would get some oil out of it? If that’s true, then HOLY SHIT! You are an evil motherfucker.

133

Master, you seem to be conflating the Iraq situation with the War on Al Q.

Are you saying that the purpose of strikes on Fallujah is to demonstrate to the world that Americans aren’t pussies ? Where does OBL come into this situation ?

Who is the ‘they’ you refer to ?

Who is the Dane (invader) in this particular situation ?

As for solutions - I can see two ways to go with it :

Kick ass :
Invest sufficient ground forces in the occupation such that there’s no need to assault a town or a neighborhood - fallujah would already be de facto occupied by coalition forces, and perhaps even sufficiently policed to prevent such events as the killing of the 4 security guys.

Or,

Diplomacy :
Coalition troops stay pretty much on their bases - Iraqi towns are controlled by local factions who retain their power by negotiation / appeasement of coalition forces. Such incidents as the killing of the 4 security guys could be handled as civilian police matters -

ie identify the guilty party(ies), collect evidence and then go after them. If they’re being harbored by the local faction, negotiate, and stop being so terrified of appearing to be “weak”.
What’s happening right now is drifting dangerously close to being “reprisals” against civilians (let’s not get into the history of that).
Time for the US admin to stop the double-talk and define some goals ?

134

News update:

The three Japanese hostages were just released unharmed.

135

Since these SAVAGES,yes, call them what they are! Are targetting civilian aid workers and truck drivers (who are risking their lives bringing in food and medical supplies to help these people), I havea simple proposal: tell the Imams, ayatollahs, etc. that henceforth, there will be NO food deliveries! Then tell them to issue fatwahs, curses, or whatever those idiots consider to be divine pronoucements that anyone interfering in food shipments is an enemy of muslims, and must be killed!
Then let’s see what happens:
-Iraqi civilians starve-then we can blame it on the muslim fanatics
-Iraqia start driving the trucks themselves-then if they attack their own peopl,it is their problem
I would be interested to see if muslims wouldignore their own fatwahs!

136

Blame it on whomever you want. It won’t change the fact that you’ll be just further radicalising an already pissed off population. Doing this would help the motherfuckers you are railing against not harm them. The Allies would be blamed by the people that matter, Iraqis.

So if threatening civilians with immolation makes you a savage what does threatening them with starvation make you?

137

Are you referring to the ex-military mercenaries of Blackwater Corporation, who want to play soldier for better pay and with less disciplinary restrictions? Or has there been another attack I’ve missed?

138

I think he was referring to the aid workers of various nationalities (Japanese, Syrian, Palestinian) who were kidnapped. An Italian security guard had been kidnapped and has just been shot. Three Russian and five Ukranians had been kidnapped and released, as has a French journalist. Four US contract employees are missing, with one, a truck driver named Thomas Hamill, known to be abducted.

Just today, an Iranian diplomat (Khalil Naimi, first secretary of the Iranian embassy) was shot and killed.

Even if you want to call the Blackwater guards military targets, these people aren’t. They’re journalists, diplomats, and charity workers.

139

Sailor, by now you should know I agree with you on the war, but on this issue you’re still wrong.

Understanding that I hate GWB as much as you do, consider the following situation:

It is learned that some Iraqis are in the USA and are planning an assassination attempt against GWB. In response, GWB has 50 Iraqi children brought over, and they are formed into a human shield around GWB. No matter where he goes, he is at all times surrounded by Iraqi children.

During one of GWB’s speaches, Iraqi gunmen jump out and attempt to gun him down. In the process, many of the children are blown to pieces.

By your logic, GWB is totally innocent, and the Iraqis are totally at fault, even though GWB deliberately used those children as human shields.

-Joe

140

Are there Italian Dopers on this board? I’d like to offer my condolences.

From BBC news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3628977.stm
Al-Jazeera said it had video footage of Mr Quattrocchi’s death, but would not broadcast it, because it was too gruesome.

An official for the TV told Italian television that Mr Quattrocchi had been shot in the back of the neck with a pistol.

At least, he wasn’t burned alive. Thank god for those brave and kind Iraqi.