Joan was taking up a job that could go to a poor unemployed person who would actually act professionally and do a good job. Why no sympathy for the person who was unemployed because Joan was taking up a position she didn’t deserve?
It’s not unheard of for a large-enough organization to have essentially that - a place to shunt surplus or problematic individuals into, with little actual responsibility although they may not know it. I’ve also heard of such departments as “Turkey Farms”.
Um, okay, what would you call it, then? Mere chronic asshattery? Just look at her parting comments and tell us there’s no narcissism there.
And that might do her some good. I’m reminded of the episode of Monster House where the build team was composed entirely of guys who had been thrown off of other episodes for being impossible to work with. After some stormy moments, they actually all figured out how to do it.
Just pump them full of bullshit about the specialness and importance of their work, how only the elite can be trusted to sort those paperclips, etc. If they had a good grasp of reality they wouldn’t be there anyway, right?
Evil Captor, the problem with Joan is that she is clearly a horrible person. Even Ghandi and radical Communists would have punted her ass out the door a long time ago.
I’m sure she’ll be fine. I’m sure she has a safety net somewhere. If she doesn’t, well I bet she’ll be one of those people that get one while better people slip through the cracks.
Yes, it would be nice if there could be a way for people to have jobs suited to them as some people are NOT “normal” and never will be, so they can only function in a certain capacity. But, Joan is far worse than just a ‘misfit toy’ and I doubt she’ll be better if a job suited to her is provided since she strikes me as just someone who is simply extremely spoiled and repulsive. I can’t sympathize with people like her.
As for any problems beyond just ‘being a square peg’, one of the problems with mental illness/personality disorders is that most people who have them deny that there are any problems. What’s worse is that personality disorders are extremely difficult, if not impossible to even treat, much less change or cure.
Then, there’s people who honestly believe that they’re not doing anything wrong and don’t deserve to be punished. Often, they’re right, but not so in Joan’s case. Believe me, she’s had her firing coming for a long time.
Interesting.
Evil Captor, although many people have responded with every single reason I had for finally firing my assistant, I figured I’d take a whack at it. The reasons you brought to the fore are the precise reasons I put off firing Joan for so long. I felt that as long as she’d been with this company that she deserved the chance to turn around her unacceptable behaviour and keep her job. Many people have approached her in the past to tell her her attitude is unacceptable. She refused to change. And I don’t mean she didn’t think she should, or she didn’t know what she was doing was wrong. I mean, she told people “I’m too old to change my ways now. People are just going to have to adjust to me.” No. I’m sorry, but everyone should be willing to compromise to make it a workable environment for everyone else. You should be professional and responsible enough to compromise when it’s clear that you are in the wrong. And apologize for being wrong. I am confident that every avenue that was open to me to helping Joan stay here was utilized. We even have a help line (free, anonymous psych line) for employees if they feel unalbe to cope. So that avenue was open to her for advice and help as well. As a manager, I could not force her to use that option, but I certainly made it known to all employees that it’s there if they do feel they need it.
To borrow loosely from Quentin Tarantino, the Biggest “R” I feel right now is relief. Relief that I will not have to see one person on my team pissed and feeling that Joan was accorded special dispensation they wouldn’t have received had they spoken to me or a physician or anyone else that way. And yes, a couple of employees did come to me yesterday and tell me “had I talked to you that way, you would’ve fired me ages ago.” Firing Joan was like excising a malignancy which was slowly killing off the healthy tissue around it. People are interacting more, they’re happier and a feeling of normalcy has settled in. I did what was right for my team. So, yes, you may very well say I won.
Now. To answer some questions. Yes, we had a couple checks waiting for her. Mike brought them with him and explained what each one was for (salary, PTO, as well as paperwork for her 401K, COBRA, etc. I didn’t )
Yes, we did indeed discuss the matter as a department over lunch, although I didn’t release any details about why. Simply informed them all Joan would no longer be with us, and that some reorganization would be needed until I found someone to fill the slot. Everyone’s agreed to take on a responsibility here and there.
No, I certainly didn’t put it off from Friday to Tuesday just so I could enjoy it more. I actually put it off so I wouldn’t be so pissed off when I fired her. I’d rather be calm and clear than spouting incoherently at the top of my lungs “GET OUT YOU PSYCHO HOSEBEAST!!” That would probably be actionable, and I was making very sure that both I and my company were covered in this situation. Fortunately, venting here took a lot of that away.
Dear lord, Swamp Bear!! :eek: I honestly don’t know what I would’ve done faced with someone who flat out accepted to refuse reality. Good on ya for handling it the way you did.
Anyrose, what happened to you is what pushed me most to fire that woman. I don’t want the others on the team feeling that way. That they’re being taken advantage of and given more responsibility without the acknowledgement that they’re carrying the extra load. The resentment is a killer.
I’m assuming that you didn’t mean to do this LHoD, but I must say that’s one punch line that writes itself better than any I’ve ever seen.
Now to address the EC hijack: I too wish there were more resources set aside for those who are mentally unstable for whatever reason. However, we don’t appear to be there as a society yet. Do you have an practical suggestions for things we could do in the interim?
And of course, I’m thrilled for Maureen’s inevitable return to peace. The load of stress taken out of your environment (all the way around) must be immense.
"I said “Joan, unfortunately at this time, we feel it’s necessary to terminate your employment with the company. This is due to several factors which I’m going to outline so you understand. You will get a copy of this, and will also have the chance to respond in writing if you’d like.” “I handed her a box of tissue, and Mike then told Joan that since she reported to me, I would be explaining the reasons for termination, and he then reminded her *that as an at will employee, it was not necessary for us to have a cause for termination. * She turned and gave me a death look, and I went down the list of items over the past year which have led to the termination of her employment.”
Note my italics. There was no need to have a 'list of items". No need to list “several factors”. Just “your services are no longer needed”- as the LR guy even said as much.
And, I supported Maureen’s decision to get rid of Joan. Just not the “how”. If you, as a supervisor find that one of your employees is causing you headaches, extra stress and work way out of proportion to their contibutions, then you should “let them go”.
But listing the reasons- UNLESS you’re firing for “cause”- is a bad idea. Leads to drama, leads to lawsuits and leads to them going to the State EDD and filing a claim. Just say “thank you and good-bye”. Let them have their Un-Employment, if that’s what they really want.
If Maureen had come in here and said “well, today I beat Joan silly with a baseball bat” we wouldn’t be congratulating her. Or if she said “remember my pathetic coworker, Joan? She died in a car accident yesterday.” We’d be offering our sympathy to Maureen and Joan’s friends and family. But she followed what society has deemed as acceptable for an employee who doesn’t perform to standards.
And yes, I’d love to see a Salvation Army or WPA type program for the unemployed. But in today’s competative business environment, that can’t be Maureen’s company’s responsibility. If they start using their resources for the Island of Misfit Toys, they have less resources to spread to projects and people worthy - or their costs simply go up, the competition undercuts them, and then no one has a job. Moreover, although I’m a liberal, my willingness to help others with my tax dollars does not extend to people who are capable of taking responsiblity for themselves and actively work against taking that responsibility.
I have an aunt who is IS mentally ill and has had a difficult time holding a job. While I appreciate Elvis’s psychiatric expertise in diagnosing a woman he has never met and only has second hand descriptions of over the internet, I’m saving my sympathy for people who have been diagnosed over the course of therapy and who we don’t adquately support today.
Don’t even bother with this troglodyte, Maureen. IIRC, he doesn’t seem to think ANYONE should EVER be fired for ANY REASON. He pulled this shit when Bricker told us about firing a person for plagarism.
Let the rest of us take care of him:
Evil Captor, let’s remember that this woman basically almost destroyed the marriages of TWO co-workers when she called their spouses and accused said co-workers of having an affair. Let me repeat that-she could have destroyed not one but TWO marriages. But it’s not okay to fire her?
Why don’t you go back to wanking to rape and torture threads, rather than hijacking this one, mmmkay?
Another firing story: A friend of mine was a chef at a pizza place. He didn’t have any authority to fire anyone, keep in mind. That said, he did just that when he caught the dishwasher repeatedly spitting in the sink while washing dishes. (After he had caught him doing that several times, and warned him, mind you.) He later told the owner what he had done, and the guy backed him up.
We’d be asking Maureen how she restrained herself for this long. 
Maureen if you had heard the Monty Pythonesque exchange between my PHB and her supervisor, you would have done like I did (at first) and gone into the restroom to laugh for five minutes. Seriously it was like this:
“You can’t fire me.”
“I’m your supervisor. Yes I can.”
“No you can’t!”
“Yes I can!”
“You need to turn in your keys pack up and your stuff and leave.”
“I’m not going. You can’t fire me.”
John Cleese would have been so proud.
The true test of professionalism was being able to hold it together after I came out of the restroom.
Umm… Guinastasia, I may never eat out again! :eek:
Not at all.
Joan’s future behavior is independent of my laughter, were I laughing, or your sympathy. I’ve already explained why independent outsiders would look positively on the events described, and LHoD offered a very likely scenario if we were dealing with Joan directly.
But ultimately, if it is only a matter of strengths and weaknesses, how much responsibility do others need to take to help you deal with your weaknesses? Why should we not be happy when the unspoken contract we extend to others is upheld? No, I don’t know Joan, but I’ve known people like her and worse. To the degree that I can identify with her co-workers, my sense of justice is satisfied.
If personality disorders were readily amenable to socialization, socializing processes would affect them positively. I consider job loss a socializing process, just as I do a smile, a conversation, a slap in the face, an insult. We use many methods to shape socially acceptable behavior.
However, I would not at all be averse to some sort of residential treatment facility that could be shown to be effective in improving personality disorders. It just doesn’t exist right now.
I don’t disagree. However, personality disorders are not psychotic disorders, and people with one typically have very different strengths and weaknesses than people with the other.
Ultimately, yes, I would hope to be able for Joan to have a positive corrective experience. That doesn’t mean I’m going to shit on those who appreciate that some measure of justice happened.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Okay, I think that NOW is the time for us to come together as The Straight Dope Community and demand a pukey smiley.
Perhaps. We psychologists are often accused of overdiagnosing or pathologizing everything. Sometimes a hosebeast is just a hosebeast.
Narcissistic comments do not a narcissist make. I’d have to assess the criteria for the personality disorders and rule out other psychopathology using acceptable assessment techniques - second party observations from the internet not falling into that category.
For example, how do you know that Maureen is not suffering from some form of psychopathology, and Joan, if she exists, is not a pleasant and happy colleague sitting politely at her workstation right now? (No offense intended, Maureen.)
You know, just because someone enjoys bondage imagery doesn’t mean he wants to inflict pain and suffering in the real world.
Yes, it seems like “Well, since this poster let us all know that he likes Bondage imagry, his opinion on anything is completely worthless- whereas my opinion is very valuable- as I have not yet the board know I like live chickens stuffed up my ass” 
:dubious:
Good. Now we’re all on the same page.
I don’t know what Maureen does at her job, but I’ll bet cash money that she doesn’t actually set the policy for how a firing goes. Besides, going down a list like that is cathartic, and good for Maureen’s well-being.
Do we really need to set up a whole new set of services? Can’t we just co-opt the existing ones? For instance, the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I mean hell, some of that stuff those kids want to do is expensive! Just give 'em a hackeysack and get Joan some food! Won’t somebody not think of the children!!
Sometimes an asshat is just an asshat, eh?
Anyway, this isn’t a firing story…its not even really a hosebeast coworker story. But I think its amusing.
I worked with a woman “Susan” who was an executive secretary. She found another job and gave notice…
wait, we need to go back a little farther…
About four months earlier, Susan had started dating John, who was a Director at said company - one of the most eligible bachelors around. A guy who knew his status as an eligible bachelor and made the most of it. He dated Susan and several other women (sometimes, it appeared, at the same time) during the years he was there. Susan lasted a few (maybe two) months - more than some, less than others, before getting dumped by our office Casanova.
About a month after dumping Susan, John annouced his engagement to a girl he’d dated extensively over a year before and had gotten back together with. The wedding date announced was for something like six weeks later. Quick and shocked everyone.
Two weeks later, Susan gave her notice.
Her last day, some of the folks she worked with - Senior Managers and Directors (remember, she’s and Executive Secretary) took her out for lunch. Lunch started at 11:00 and they got back at 1:30. And I don’t think Susan consumed anything solid, because when she showed up she was completely blotto.
She shows up in John’s office and proceeds to tell him - in that loud and yet barely coherant way someone who has been doing shots of Jagermeister over lunch can - exactly what she thought of him.
Having starting this catharisis, Susan then decides she might as well tell all her co-workers what she thinks of them - and none of it has the tone of “you guys were great, I’ll really miss you.”
Security dumps her in a cab.
Two years later, she is rehired by the company!
If she doesn’t exist, why worry about her being offended?
I may not have the benefit of a Psych degree, but I don’t need one to tell you’re being an asshat yourself.
Whoa. In a different department, I hope. It never fails. Company functions combined with alcohol always end up with one person wishing they’d never said “yes, I’ll have 1 or 10 of those drinks, thanks…” . You can see the melt down coming and it’s never pretty. Always good for a story though.
DrDeth, it’s entirely possible I could have handled it better. While I did want to outline the reasons for her termination, it wasn’t malicious. I do not know if HR will contest her unemployment, but if it were left up to me we wouldn’t.
I think you did fine. I think people should be told why they are being let go, mostly because then they have the option (whether taken or not) or learning from their mistakes.
Although I don’t know if Joan will take what you said and learn from it, at least she has that option.
My point is simply that we cannot know if something meets criteria for a disorder without assessing the criteria, and yes, it could just be chronic asshattery. Alternatively, our diagnostic criteria might be poor at adequately distinguishing between asshattery and a given personality disorder.
Perhaps, but it has so much less authority behind it.
I’m actually not sure why you felt this way. Just because I wasn’t sure if something could be called a personality disorder versus poor interpersonal behavior? Sheesh.