young black guys & rolling up pants?

[Amok]

*Originally posted by drachillix *
here notice the picture…

This site also lists Pittsburgh Pirates baseball caps as a sign of being affiliated with “The People”. I’ll have to remember that the next time I go to PNC Park.

from here

From that site:

Excessive amounts of dark clothing or a predominance of one-color outfits, white t-shirts and levis with upturned cuffs are also indicators of possible gang involvement.

So what does “possible gang involvement” mean? My interpretation of that would be “some gang members display these characteristics, but they also can be displayed by non-gang members”. Which I think is accurate. But it hardly claims that upturned cuffs are a definate sign of gang involvment, that only gang members do this, or that the trend started among gang members.

So the fact that I talk to these guys and work around them constantly is irrelevent?

Yes. Unless you’re a trained sociologist or a member of the culture, you’re not really qualified to form conclusions as to why members preform certain acts.

At one point in my life (early to mid 90s), while I was going to college, most of my friends were black. A fair number of them did the upturned cuff thing at times. None of them were gang members (since very few go to college, I assume) and not many of them had even connections. My ancedotal experience on this subject is worth about as much as your’s, if not more.

My safety depends on these cues.

Well, I’m sure you believe that. I don’t want to get too GDish here, but I have my doubts about whether that is true.

On a weekly basis we cross paths with one or more of the following:

Fresno Police Dept
Fresno County Sherrifs Office M.A.G.E.C. Team (Multi Agency Gang Enforcement Consortium)
Fresno County Juvenile Parole

They all tell us that its a sign…

Logical fallacy. Specifcally argument from authority. None of these groups are qualified to determine what fashion statements are specific to gang members, or if both gang members and non-gang members display a common sign, where the sign originated, and who co-opted it.

I am not BS’ing about the amount of gang presence I encounter. Maybe the pant rolling is more of a local phenomenon here than the rest of the country. In my experience, about 75% of the one rolled up pant leg we see are adverising affilliation or support/sympathy for a gang.

And how have you determined this? I doubt you or your park has surveyed everyone who comes in with an upturned cuff, or even a represenative sample of such (and there would be doubts about the accuracy of responses if you had, of course). If you are drawing your own conclusions as to whether someone is a gang member, then your figure is not statistically valid.

Additionally, I’m a bit confused about the “affilliation or support/sympathy” bit. In my experience, people who are not full gang members rarely display gang signs, because to do so simply isn’t smart. The members of the gang to whom the sign belongs don’t like it, and rival gang members are likely to “shoot first and ask questions later” when they see someone wearing rival gang signs. If having a pant leg up was really a gang sign, wouldn’t non-gang members be less likely to do it? In fact, your second link seems to support this view:

Many individuals on the fringe of gang involvement are reluctant to identify themselves as gang members. They often state that their friends are gang members but they are not. However, rival gang members, shooting from a speeding car, do not make a distinction between a gang member and his associates.

Of course, I’m assuming that reluctance to “identify themselves as gang members” includes not wearing gang signs. But within the context, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assumption.

In my own, purely ancedotal experience, while gang members may turn the cuff of one pant leg up, it is not something that is restricted to them, or is even primarily thought of as a gang thing. I don’t deny that gang members often wear certain clothes or have styles that display their membership, but that doesn’t mean that everything gang members wear are primarily associated with being in a gang. Gang members are generally part of a larger sub-culture, that being young, minority men/boys. It’s not suprising that they share a lot with the larger group. In my experience, it is done by urban youths simply because it is thought of as being cool, like lots of other things. There is no particular meaning to it. I’m sure that most everyone here knew of or participated in fashion fads when they were young that their elders or non-members of their culture thought were stupid, or didn’t understand the reasoning behind. It really isn’t any different.

[White_Lightning]

*Originally posted by booklover *
No, I’m a token white person in my neighborhood—I know SDMB is probably predominantly white.

My mistake. I did not realize that people identifying themselves as ‘token’ whites were referring to their token status in their own communities, not in this thread.

[pulykamell]

*Originally posted by monstro *
**From the first article cited by pulykamell:

**

As I said earlier, most of the kids I know roll up their right leg. This was the style first popularized by LL Cool J. The left-pant-leg thing is something that is definitely more site-specific and I concede that in conjunction with other traits, it is also gang-related. But the pant-leg-rolled-up phenomenom as a whole is not gang-related (just like the body-piercing fad is not related to devil worshipping, even though devil worshippers may have disproportionately more body piercings). It would be horrible for anyone to prejudge a youngster as a gang banger just because he’s got one leg rolled up on his pants. It’s this generalization that I’m protesting. **

monstro - I think we are in agreement on this. I doubt that the pant-leg thing is gang-related in most parts of the US. I think it’s some silly fad that developed ultimately from gang culture via popular rap. And of course, not everyone who wears a Pittsburg Pirates cap is a gangbanger. But there are colors that are explicitly associated with gangs in Chicago. You see a group of 5 men all wearing San Jose Sharks or Pittsburg Steelers jackets with caps all cocked to one side and you expect me to think they’re just displaced sports fans in Chicago. C’mon, get real.

The difficult part is telling who is wearing colors as a sign of gang identification, and who is wearing colors as trying to copy gangland “culture.” I’ve been mistaken for a gang banger once (pretty difficult to do, methinks) just because I was gesturing wildly with my hands and somebody thought I threw down a sign for the Popes.

Gangs certainly do identify themselves in this way, but the pants-leg thing is most likely related to pop-culture rather than gang affiliation.

[gingersnap]

*Originally posted by peepthis *
**
These aren’t pantyhose, white bread. **

Read up, brutha:

THE QUESTION:
R354: I have noticed a number of younger African Americans wearing knee-high pantyhose on their heads. I would like to know why this is done, and where this trend came from.
POSTED JUNE 24, 1998
Jason <microft@westol.com>, Washington, DC

ANSWER 1:
I’m not exactly sure where this latest trend came from for young black men, especially when you consider all the fashion designers who have their signature models of these caps. However, black women have used them for ages. They come in really handy for keeping hair neat and in place while you’re sleeping. I used them when I was a kid. We’d take a pair of new pantyhose, cut off most of the legs, tie what was left of the legs into a knot and stretch the seat area over our heads. We called them “stocking caps.”
Denise, 27, black, Bronx, NY

Source: http://www.yforum.com/best101898.html

[Amok]

I realize I made a mistake in my previous post. I got the term “upturned cuffs” from drachillix’s second link and his post, and I used it without really thinking about it to describe what we’re talking about. But upturned cuffs are not what we’re talking about. Upturned cuffs are, well, just that; folding up the pant leg cuff (on one, or more likely, both pant legs) on a pair of khakhis or other type of pants that has cuffs. I’ve generally seen people do this with tan khakhis while wearing white t-shirts. It’s a style that, in my experience, is usually associated with Mexcian youths in LA, but a fair number of other people have adopted it. It’s definetely different than rolling up one pant leg to mid-calf or higher.