I think prenups should be signed for all marriages no matter the circumstances.
Fine. Just off the top of my head:
The current total amount of the trust is $100,000,000; it was set up by the Lover’s grandfather and is divided among the grandchildren and their future children. Currently there are no great-grandchildren. There are curently 10 participants, including the Lover; the Lover is the only one not using the money. The Lover’s yearly allowance is a minimum of 2% of his or her portion of the trust; this is disbursed automatically, and she or he can request up to another 1% any time during the year. When the automatic disbursement happens each January, the Lover signs over his/her portion to charity.
The Lover declines to use any of the money because it originates from property stolen from Jews during the Holocaust, and the grandfather, far from feeling guilty about this, was known to boast about it; his only regret was that only 6 million Jews were killed during that period, and that he himself was not a guard in the camps. The Lover has not opted out of the trust entirely because it’s set up so that doing so prevents any future children from inheriting as well, and the Lover doesn’t think it’s fair to force that choice onto them. The Lover is 40-something and has never used any money from the trust since leaving home at 16; currently the Lover has a comfortable middle-class job, savings, retirement plan, and so forth.
I would think someone had been watching too many stupid depression-era movies - this all just sounds like a movie plot setup.
I would definitely want something in there about the children - they should get something.
But I’m really offended by that ‘get nothing if I’m unfaithful’ clause! How very, very offensive that is! I’d almost feel like going out and having several super-secret affairs, just to get back at him, nyahh nyahh!
Take out the unfaithful clause, put in something about the children, and I’d sign. $1 million for five years work is pretty good. I’m a quiet living frugal sort, anyway, I wouldn’t necessarily run out and start buying expensive shit just for the hell of it. But I could see a lot of future conflict, with some people, who just know there’s a lot of money they could - should! - be accessing, and I can imagine a lot of fights with the words “but you KNOW you have the family money” being thrown around. Five years would be stretching it.
This. Largely because of 1) I’d never met his parents, I’d never say yes in that scenario and 2) He hadn’t been honest.
I actually know a couple who are good friends of my parents, and whose daughter is a good friend of my little brother’s. The man and the woman were set up by mutual friends in grad school. The girl was getting her masters, the guy his MD. She was from an upper-middle class family, his family lived upper-middle class but are actually worth about 500 million. They had both met each others’ families. A month before he popped the question, he told her that he hadn’t been completely honest, that his family wasn’t just upper-middle class, but that they were actually worth 500 million. She laughed, and said it was fine. He didn’t ask for a pre-nup, though, and his family didn’t pressure him for one. He works as a physician, and she teachers at the local college, so their lives are pretty much exactly what they would be, except they don’t have a mortgage and choose to work.
I mean, it’s obvious why he hadn’t told her, because other women had only been interested in his money. It’s perfectly understandable.
This seems like the best case scenario. I’d be fine if I weren’t asked to sign a pre-nup. My family’s worth a little bit, but they’d never dream of asking my SO to sign one. Now, if my brother intends to marry some bimbo? Sure, they’d make him, or write him out essentially. Such is life.
The biggest warning flag here is not meeting his parents. That’s crucial.
I voted yes, without blinking. But now that I think about it, I would have to be sure that the prenup included that she would get none of *my *money.
If I am lucky enough to find a woman, I won’t care about her money.
My thoughts exactly! I am surprised more people don’t feel this way.
Who’s the Lover having these kids with, Jesus? Although I guess if the Lover’s a She and we’re not adopting, there won’t be any imaginary kids. But if there were, I’d think it odd that I’d be working my ass off in a shaky economy and trying to find daycare, hoping I don’t get fired while taking maternity leave, taking school trip money out of the fund to fix the roof, and these kids are going to grow up to be millionaires. Might even make me feel resentful. Get rid of all the money and be done with it, or keep it and make your peace.
A quick glance tells me there’s a bit of a trend along gender lines. I think the idea that a guy might be dependent on his wife at some point and need alimony (because, say, he’s taken a few years off from his career to raise the kids and his career is stalled) is still pretty foreign to most people. As is the label of golddigger.
Since you’re opposed to having kids, would you be okay with the lover saying, “Okay, well, I don’t ever want to be with anyone but you anyway, plus I’m forty, so I’m going to arrange to opt out of the trust entirely. That will obviate any question of a prenup.”
I can’t see it that way. I actually lost everything in my first marriage as the primary wage earner, yet I still see it this way. Was the marriage a mistake? Probably. But I still don’t think you should go into a marriage with the idea that the other person is going to fuck you over and you need to cover your ass by having them sign a paper that has them forfeit their rights. You’re already starting off with an air of mistrust.
If you go into a marriage with the idea that it’s going to fail, then I think you can pretty much guarantee it will.
As to the seatbelt analogy someone mentioned, putting on your seatbelt means you’re protecting yourself against some random asshole who might run a red light. A pre-nup assumes your spouse to be is some kind of asshole out to take advantage of you. When you assume the random asshole is your spouse to be, there’s a real problem.
I know that I can be an asshole, especially when I’m wounded or angry. Every single person I’ve ever met is capable of being a titanic jackass if the provocation is big enough.
And I know that there’s only two ways out of marriage, and both of them suck (it’s almost funny that a successful marriage is one that ends in someone being dead). So yeah, if I get remarried I will take into account the likelihood of one or both of us turning mean and stupid, and I will be accepting the risk that we end up divorced.
Not into the suddenly-revealing-important-personal-information-after-proposing thing.
This does completely change my answer. It’s so far fetched though, that I think it was unfair to not state it as such in the OP. Not that there are a lot of squeaky clean 100 mil fortunes out there, but this is so far outside the norm that it requires different reasoning.
If that was the scenario why hide it till the last minute? You’d want your partner to have time to understand rather than springing it on them right before marriage.
Otara
Funny I took the OP more as the reason for the timing being that having come to love and trust you they lover is ready to both reveal their secrets and propose marriage.
Of course in general I see prenups less as a sign of a lack of trust and more as good planning. I’ve been divorced though so that may have coloured my views.
I take issue with the idea that a prenup keeps emotion out of the legal proceedings at divorce. (I think that is what you’re hinting at.)
Prenups don’t preclude a nasty, emotionally-charged legal fight. Prenups can be contested, and judges tend to consider those challenges pretty seriously. The longest divorce I ever worked on was so long because there was a prenup. You can try to protect your savings with a prenup, only to find that you have to spend a huge chunk on lawyers’ fees to defend it (or on a settlement with your spouse). Furthermore, certain sticky issues (like child custody) cannot be determined by a prenup.
I think it is telling that the majority of married lawyers do not have a prenup. They are not the panacea that non-lawyers tend to imagine.
Totally with you on the “anyone can be a jackass” thing, though.
No, I’m just taking issue with the idea that there’s any way to know if the person you marry is going to be a jackass later. I’m okay with someone saying “Prenups don’t work.” But I’m less comfortable with the idea of “I know my honey will always be kind and considerate so we don’t need to worry about it.”
If my lover and I couldn’t have kids (or didn’t want them – but then what have they been waiting for?) I guess it’d be up to them to opt out of the trust. Maybe it would bring them closure, maybe itd be a sticking point and they’d regret it if one of us suddenly lost our job and we were in dire straits. But if they wanted a pre-nup with that much money, perhaps they’d also want one with whatever they make regularly/ Or maybe I would – this whole thing about a ‘secret trust’ sounds like prime scam artist material.
Here’s the turnaround: I was dirt-poor, working in AmeriCorps*VISTA (mandated below-poverty wage in Alaska), and I met this guy … we started dating / he took me to fine restaurants, the symphony, etc. I provided what cheap or freebie entertainment when I could; took him to a few shows that I wanted to see, etc. (No sex involved.) My father dies; I am left with a s**tload of $$$ (comparatively speaking), a fine vehicle, and a lovely paid-for water-view condo in Maine.
He’s helped me out of messy finanacial situations - fixing horrible old Geo before I got my late dad’s car; bought snow tires because he didn’t want to visit me in the hospital; comforted me after my cruddy apt. was (1) burglarized and then (2) the Geo was stolen. He lent me a truck to carry me over until Geo was found. Took me to the emergency clinic twice when I was too sick to take myself there.
He voluntarily flew to Maine to help me clean out the condo. I didn’t ask him to come, but I could not have gotten through this without him. Then he starts talking marriage.
He now knows my money situation. But he has never, not once, ever asked me for one thin dime. We agree that money causes greed and corrupts. We get along fine, on many levels.
He seems to be utterly trustworthy; always shows up on time; never invades my space or monopolizes my time. Too good to be true? Doesn’t smoke or drink. No vices? He’s a bit religious and likes Broadway musicals. :eek:
I have accepted his proposal (it took him six months to ask, BTW). There is still time for me to change my mind.
He can’t get to the money; it’s all tied up in the Trust. If I can’t get it (I have to ask for Distributions), he can’t get it.
Should I require HIM to sign a pre-nup??? No legal advice solicited here.
This whole affair has gone on for just under three years …
Quoting this one just because it was close to the end, but several posters brought it up. I know quite a few couples where one part did not meet the other one’s parents until they were preparing the wedding; some where they did not meet them until a few days before the ceremony. Reasons range from “the one not introducing his parental units dislikes them” to “the parents and child live in different continents”. Of all the guys I dated in the US, only two had their relatives close by; my own were in another continent. For a culture where people uproot and move several thousand miles away as easily as Americans do, sometimes you guys seem to disregard that possibility with surprising ease.