Your opinion on this piece about food service professionals

In My Humble Opinion
121

[QUOTE=muldoonthief]
I don’t care. If something on the menu looks really good, but it contains a single ingredient I don’t like, I’ll ask if it can be held. Apart from the chain places where the food was all prepared in a giant warehouse in the Midwest and shipped around the country, I’ve never had a problem with that. And if an entree comes with 2 veggies I don’t want, but I’d really like the cheapo house salad instead, I’ll ask for that substitution as well. The dining out experience is about my enjoyment, not the waitstaff’s ease.
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As somebody with almost 24 years of foodservice experience (almost entirely as a cook), I can think of two other possible reasons people want to make substitutions and and start switching things around:

  1. Senior citizens (mostly) trying to work the system and get more than they’re paying for. Most of us who’ve been in the business any length of time have seen these people ingeniously swapping ingredients around until they’ve transmogrified the $2.99 special into the $5.99 meal that appears on the menu. And then want to pay $2.99 because “I ordered the special!”

  2. People who have somehow come to the conclusion that special requests and/or substitutions make them appear more “sophisticated”. This is easy to recognize once you’ve served a particular customer several times, and every time they have a special request or substitution. Now, if they consistently request that we “hold the onions”, it’s easy to see that they either don’t like or can’t eat onions. But when one day it’s “hold the onions” and the next day it’s “no tomatoes” (but the onions are okay this time), and the next day it’s something else, you start to see that they think special requests make them feel “special”. Also, some of these people will make so many special requests and substitutions that the end result bears little or no resemblance to the original item, and we’re left wondering why they ordered that item in the first place if there were so many things about it they didn’t like to begin with. Sometimes, it even becomes obvious that they’re trying to turn a menu item into something they had at another, more expensive restaurant.

122

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
But then I’ve been at IHOPs or TGIFridays where the service has been dreadful and the food barely edible. I am supposed pay 15% MORE than what I’m already paying? For that? No. I have left these restaurants without tipping, more than once. I supposed it’d be different if I were paying $10 for a dinner for two. Since it’s $30, sorry, waiter at TGI Fridays, you lose. Find a better waiting job.
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[QUOTE=DudleyGarret]
Like I said, though, I rarely run into any problems at all when dining at quality restaurants, but we have to draw a line here: casual waitstaff vs. professionally-trained waitstaff. There is a big difference. By casual I mean the waitstaff job anyone can get – low-quality family chain restaurants, greasy spoons, etc, and professionally-trained waitstaff working at restaurants where the minimum cost is $50 a plate. The latter know their craft, and they know how to handle badly prepared meals – without the customer getting involved.
You’re comparing two completely different business models when you mention chain restaurants and restaurants “where the minimum cost is $50 a plate.”
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Using this formula to deny a tip is just an excuse for not wanting to tip.

Equating expectations between a chain restaurant and a top notch restaurant is ignorant.

Braying about $50 entrees and then whining about $30 checks and $6 tips is crass and tacky.

I know someone who once sent back a bottle of Blue Nun. You two would get along well

123

[QUOTE=bouv]
When you’ve cooked Dish A several hundred times, and someone comes in and makes some weird request, I think it’s a bit understandable that we might forget. Making some of these things becomes habit.
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Ha! I’ve said for years that the single most difficult “special request” for a breakfast cook (which is what I’ve been most of the time) is … dry toast. Because on a breakfast menu, almost every single plate comes with toast, so you’re making it over and over and over. After a while, making toast is no longer a series of steps, it’s one action: “make toast”. It becomes totally automatic to grab the toast from the toaster with one hand while simultaneously grabbing the butter knife with the other. I can’t count how many times I’ve gotten one slice buttered before realized my mistake. D’OH!

I’ve always found that it’s worst when everybody in a large group orders the same thing, but each person has a different special request. I’ll use cheeseburgers as an example to keep it, um, simple heh heh I’d see a ticket that looked like this:

10 cheeseburgers
1 - no mayo
2 - no onions
1 - no mayo, no onions
1 - plain
2 - no ketchup, no pickles
1 - no cheese
2 - extra mayo & ketchup, no tomatoes

Just try to keep that straight (especially on a handwritten ticket where the server had to start writing sideways because she was running out of room because of all the requests)!

And half the time it’s because the customer doesn’t actually know what “medium rare” means. Or what “over easy” means. They just order their food that way because that’s what their mom called it. But she was wrong, but they don’t know that, so they think the cook screwed up. They don’t know that these terms have specific definitions.

I figured out a long time ago that a lot of middle-class people go to restaurants because it gives them an opportunity to feel superior to somebody else. And they know they can be assholes and there’s very little we can do about it because the management will come down on us at the drop of a hat, but won’t dare tell arrogant customers to knock their shit off.

Well heck, the customer’s mothers did the same work at home, so it must be easy! Why can’t these servers and cooks get it right? :smiley:

124

[QUOTE=Rilchiam]
Sampiro, can you go into more detail about drunk and obnoxious Corey Haim? Because he’s one of my favorite trainwrecks. Not so much what he did to aggravate you guys, but how he reacted when you 86’ed him.
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This is second hand but it’s from a reliable source, my cousin who I’ll refer to as Seth (because that’s his name). It was very late- the restaurant closed around midnight and this was probably 11 p.m. or so- and it was miserably cold wet weather. Corey Haim came into the restaurant with a big burly guy Seth said looked sort of like John Goodman (he was not John Goodman- that’s just for mental image) who Haim alternately referred to as his assistant and as his business partner. Seth actually recognized Haim and did the whole “is that… naw… couldn’t be… in Montgomery?.. yeah I think it is…” thing. This was in the late 1990s when poor Corey was already past his prime and Seth said he looked really rough, like he had been awake for 2 days and none of it sober.

He decided to do the usual protocol for serving celebrities, even faded ones, by not mentioning that he recognized them. Turned out that wasn’t necessary because the first thing the Goodman-assistant/business partner guy said was “Hey buddy, I saw you do kind of a double take, this is Corey Haim.” Then he told him a story about how they were en-route to someplace but because of the weather their plane was landed in Birmingham (which was probably true because, as mentioned, the weather was sleety) and since they weren’t going to be able to leave for another day he (the Goodman) had rented a car to drive down to Montgomery because he had family here. However, the airport had lost some of their luggage so they were low on cash, BUT (this is the really pathetic part) Corey would be glad to sign autographs and pose for pics if they could comp their meals. Seth (who self-identifies as straight) started to suggest “How about he comes into the bathroom and sucks my d*ck in exchange for some nachos and spinach dip the fat guy in the corner didn’t finish?” but, this is Seth, “in the first place I wasn’t sure the fat guy was really finished and in the second place Corey looked like he’d say ‘yeah, okay, whatever’- dude’s been played to hell and back” (and this was 10 years ago when he was still youngish and cutish and not as far away from his career).

So instead Seth said “nice to meet you but sorry- cash or card” only. The two grumbled and talked it over, then said “Okay” and ordered. When Seth came back Corey ordered a drink and Seth told him “I have to see some I.D.”. Corey told him that his wallet was in the car. He told him “Sorry, but I can’t serve you alcohol without an ID if you look under 30. It’s not just restaurant policy but state law.”

“Dude, I’m Corey Haim.”

Seth: “Dude, I loved Lost Boys. I still need to see some ID.”

“If you liked Lost Boys then you know I was a teenager and that was like twelve fucking years ago. Figure it out, I’m over 21.”

“I don’t have any choice. I have to see some I.D. or no alcohol. Period.”

Corey: “That’s fucking stupid. You know who I am and that I’m over 21. What the fuck do you need an ID for…”

Seth (according to Seth, and he’s not prone to embellishment, and deliberately being [self-idenfies as] straight-boy bitchy): “I am very sorry Mr. Feldman, but I don’t have a choice.”

He said he probably could have made an exception since Corey actually looked over 30 even though he wasn’t and he really did know he was over 21, but he didn’t like the “fucking rubes” attitude, so (Seth again) “I made Corey Haim go outside in the freezing rain and get his fucking driver’s license before I’d sell him a drink.” He said when Corey came back he wouldn’t deal with Seth but went over to the bar and tried to talk up the attractive-ish bartender, who later told Seth “You won’t believe this but that little bastard just tried to get me to give him free booze in exchange for autographs and shit and then asked if I’d go out with him when we close!” So now she was pissed with him and Seth was pissed with him.

Since he’d already placed their orders he went into the kitchen personally to say “Engage” [Asshole Rules]. I don’t remember what they did- it was never anything too bad- nothing that would make them sick or get the wait/kitchen staff found out (i.e. no big thing of spit or rat poison in the food or anything) but they did something rude. Corey and Goodman paid their bill with Goodman’s credit card, left no tip, and road off to glory. Shortly afterwards Corey declared bankruptcy and the staff all, quite meanly, laughed and had a drink to it.

Won’t swear it’s true, but it’s as repeated and Seth is pretty reliable (though I have doubts on the straight part :wink: ).

125

[HIJACK]ewwwww… I just did some googling of Corey Haim. He was so broke in 2001 that he auctioned (or tried to) some of his hair and a tooth on eBay! I’ll never understand why when child-stars reach that point they don’t just take a course in selling real estate or enroll in a nursing school or otherwise get a real job that has some dignity and use. (The “disappearing daughter” from Family Matters was on a “poor them” show recently mentioning how things became so desperate she had to make porn to pay her bills, which I found infuriating: MILLIONS of people have had money problems or been unemployed and got back on their feet without doing porn, so you didn’t HAVE to do it- you chose to do it because it was quick money and let you use that filament thin link to legitimate show biz; you could probably have made more money that month working as a waitress or for Kelly Girls because porn producers aren’t like Hugh Hefner tossing Jessica Hahn millions for her Playboy spreads, they’re notorious cheapskates.)[/HIJACK]

126

I’m surprised, and not pleasantly so, by some of the posts defending the greedy attitude and atrocious behavior of some servers. Sounds suspiciously like resentment from doing a job that they chose to do. I also noticed the stereotyping of “senior citizens” and the “middle-class”, the two demographic groups that control the majority of the money in western society. Looks like some of you in the food service business don’t recognize who’s buttering your bread (pun intended).
All in all, if I ever go out for a meal again, I’m certainly going to keep a close eye on my server. The tip? That, as always, depends on you.

127

Thanks, Sampiro! Love the “Mr. Feldman” bit!

128

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
MILLIONS of people have had money problems or been unemployed and got back on their feet without doing porn
[/QUOTE]

I, for one. Shit, I was never even offered the option.! And I’m pissed as hell! :mad:

129

[QUOTE=EJsGirl]
Haven’t there been at least two cites in this thread stating that is not the case?

Yes, this cite seems to indicate that although the federal minimum cash wage is $2.13, at least 36 states pay a higher cash wage than that, and at least 8 states pay exactly the same minimum wage, cash or not.
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Not to mention that, if a tipped employee’s wages and tips combined do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. So, servers never make less than minimum wage; the law doesn’t allow it.

130

[QUOTE=valleyofthedolls]
Using this formula to deny a tip is just an excuse for not wanting to tip.

Equating expectations between a chain restaurant and a top notch restaurant is ignorant.

Braying about $50 entrees and then whining about $30 checks and $6 tips is crass and tacky.

I know someone who once sent back a bottle of Blue Nun. You two would get along well
[/QUOTE]

Even though that is your opinion, let me point out where you might be unclear, and stop fucking selectively quoting me, KTHNX.

I think I’ve walked out of a restaurant without tipping twice in my life. Once was because a breakfast meal arrived cold, and I had to wait 15 minutes before I even saw a member of the waitstaff. When she arrived she said, “Of course it’s cold. You’ve been waiting this long to tell someone.” Um, what? Not only did I not tip, but I left without paying (the manager was profusely apologizing – no matter, I never went back).

I forget what the other was, but it was similarly egregious.

So, I suppose the server I described **deserved ** a tip, right? Maybe in your rose-colored pedantic world.

“Braying about $50 entrees”?? What does that even mean? $50 is a moderately priced entree.

$6 on a $30 bill is 20% – are you suggesting that I leave more?! Insane.

What I’ve found in this thread is nothing different than you see every day – people looking for a free ride or others telling me what I must do with my money (you know, that stuff I get for working 50 hours a week).

131

[QUOTE=Jodi]
Well, that’s a mighty odd definition of “stealing” you’ve got there. You admit the tip is a mere expectation, and I presume you admit that no specific or particular amount is required – depending as it does at least in theory on the quality of service – so I fail to see how it could possibly meet any definition of stealing, be it legal, moral, or ethical. And you do not get to decide my morals or ethics for me, just as you don’t get to tell me how to handle any particular tipping situation. You are neither required or allowed to impose your own unique ethic/moral definitions on me. QUOTE]

The one point that you still haven’t adequately addressed is the fact that waiters are usually paid at below minimum wage. If the state sees fit to make a below minimum wage provision for tipped employees, then the rest of the money should be coming from tips.

So while, yes, you are right that tipping is not technically required, unless you’re of the belief that waiters should work at a sweatshop wage to serve you, how is it in any way ethical to not tip?

Another frustrating point about your posts is the underlying assumption that since someone is waiting on you, they deserve to make the same amount of money as some sixteen year old kids at McDononalds. Now granted, there are alot of crappy chains like Applebees staffed by dropouts and other go-nowheres, but any good restaurant worth eating in will have a pretty professional waitstaff who do thier job well. You might not even realize it, but a good waiter can pretty much ensure a great experience for thier guests. Back when I waited tables in college, if the guest was in a bad mood, if the restaurant was really busy and the wait was long, if food was messed up, whatever problems you could think of; I would send the guest home happy, even if it meant smiling and saying “yes sir” to a total @$$hole.

If you really want to advocate that that service is only worth $4.50/hour, then thats your perogative. But I think you will understand if most decent people think that position is pretty morally reprehensible.

132

Maybe Sampiro’s friend “Earl” needs to post all of the rules and regulations of visiting his restaurant in the entryway of the restaurant, like the huge signboard full of regulations I always saw as a kid at the local swimming pool.

There are assholes all over the place, and it seems like there are more and more of them all the time; posting a long list of rules for visiting a restaurant isn’t going to make anyone less assholish.

On the other hand, when I drop over $30 per person on an evening at a decent restaurant, I should damn well get what I want when I want it. And I’ll tip according to how good the service is. If you can’t handle demanding customers, get a job that involves a shovel. I don’t give a damn for your rules and regulations – I eat out because (1) I want to spend time with friends and good food and (2) I don’t want to cook or clean up. I’m willing to spend a pretty penny for that, and the best server-folk are the ones I don’t even notice. It’s not about the server person, it’s about the food and the restaurant.

Both of my sons have worked/are working in the food service industry, and one daughter-in-law manages a restaurant. I fully understand about tipping and how important it is to server-folk. If I get decent service, I tip accordingly, but I do not pull out a pocket calculator and determine what 15% is and then round up.

133

[QUOTE=MichaelQReilly]
The one point that you still haven’t adequately addressed is the fact that waiters are usually paid at below minimum wage. If the state sees fit to make a below minimum wage provision for tipped employees, then the rest of the money should be coming from tips.
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The rest of the money does come from tips. Or are you arguing that most wait staff do not in fact make at least minimum wage? Some people tip 20% routinely; some few people (jerks) don’t tip at all. One crappy customer not tipping doesn’t plunge the waiter’s salary below minimum wage.

A “tip” is discretionary to the customer, and is generally understood to be tied to the level of service received. It is completely ethical not to tip if you receive extremely poor service. Why would that be unethical? It is only unethical not to tip if you personally believe a tip is deserved and yet you don’t leave one. Nobody in this entire thread is talking about that. And it has nothing to do with the larger point, which is that because a tip is completely discretionary, no one has to tip.

This “underlying assumption” exists nowhere in any of my posts, period. I have no idea why or how you might read that in to anything I’ve said, but your imputation of this assumption to me is 100% incorrect.

I don’t tip at McDonald’s. I tip waiters who actually wait on me. I assume and am confident I am correct that a waiter at virtually any sit-down restaurant makes more money than a kid at Mickey D’s – as he should.

See, I don’t buy this. I waited tables for years at Pizza Hut – arguably another “crappy chain” – and I was expected to behave as professionally in terms of customer service as if I was waiting tables at Delmonico’s. I don’t believe there is a sliding scale for decent service. Now, the kid at Applebees may not know to serve from the left and clear from the right, but she can still be friendly, accurate, prompt, and professional.

Yes, this was my experience as well back when I waited tables. In fact, I felt it was my obligation as a waiter. That’s one of the reasons I have very little patience with truly bad service: I would never have done that to you, Mr. Waiter, if the roles were reversed and I was the waiter and you were the customer. Even if the waiter thinks I’m being tiresome and picky – which, truly, I’m not in restaurants, because I’ve been in their shoes myself – I expect good service. Because that’s the waiter’s job.

Again, with the attributing to me positions I never took. Kindly cut it out.

I’m certainly not advocating that service is worth any amount per hour. Having worked in high-end resturants and chains, it was not my experience that I worked 2 to 3 times as hard in the better restaurants, yet I made 2 to 3 times the money, because more expense food = higher tips. Is that fair? What, exactly, is the hourly dollar amount you would place on waiting tables? Is that for you to decide as the customer, or is that for the business to decide when determining pay? And if you think it truly is your business, can I assume you inquire as to the waiter’s base pay before tipping, so you can be sure they are being paid IYO fairly?

Tips are expected in the U.S. and a good tip should be left for good service. BUT tips are not mandatory and are completely discretionary to the customer. People who feel that tips should NOT be mandatory should just work to have the wages of waiters raised and tipping abolished, because there’s no such thing as a “mandatory tip.” If you have to pay it, it isn’t a tip.

134

Reading your response, I think we agree more than I had realized when making my first post. Sorry if I misapplied any positions to you.

I too would not leave more than 5-7% for truly horrendous service. The only reason I would still leave some money is tht I recognize that waiters usually have to tip out and pay taxes on thier assumed tips, and as bad as the service was, I don’t believe that someone should have to pay to wait on me.

Interestingly enough, you are correct that waiters in crappy restaurants actually work a whole lot harderthan in good restaurants. In a good restaurant you would probably have 3-4 tables, a limited wait due to reservations, a well-oiled kitchen, and guests who expect a slower and more leisurely dining experience. Compare that with someone at TGI Fridays who probably has 7 tables, a completely unreliable kitchen, customers who want to get fed and leave, etc. It is interesting that they make far more based soley on menu price.

135

[QUOTE=MichaelQReilly]
It is interesting that they make far more based soley on menu price.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, in non-fine-dining, “eat and run” places, the servers make their money by turning over their tables quickly, so it evens out to a certain extent. A table of four in the fine dining place might spend $200 (for example) and sit for a couple hours, while the eat-and-run joint, in the same stretch of time, might rotate three or four parties through the same table, each spending $50.

136

I used to deliver pizza. My favorite customers were the ones who “couldn’t afford to tip.” Invariably they would be smoking pot and ordering seven or eight twenty-ounce drinks at our ridiculous markup because they were too lazy to walk to the corner store.

I even had one customer with the nerve to say “shit, you know how it goes. I gotta buy cigarrets 'n shit.” I just sort of stared at him dumbfounded for a minute and answered, “yeah, I hear that. I don’t even need money anwyay. I would have just baked that two bucks into a cake and fed it to stray cats.”

137

[QUOTE=Phase42]
Actually, in non-fine-dining, “eat and run” places, the servers make their money by turning over their tables quickly, so it evens out to a certain extent. A table of four in the fine dining place might spend $200 (for example) and sit for a couple hours, while the eat-and-run joint, in the same stretch of time, might rotate three or four parties through the same table, each spending $50.
[/QUOTE]

In theory you are correct, but I doesn’t it equals out. Even in an eat and run place, the absolute quickest that a table would take is probably about 30-40 minutes. When you factor in turnover time and the fact that the table may not be sat to capacity each time, it just doesn’t work out like you say except on very rare occasions.

When I was a waiter in college I worked at Outback for 1 year before switching to a Mortons. Even though in both restaurants I usually had 3-4 table sections, I still made far more at Mortons, despite the fact that tables did indeed stay longer.

138

[QUOTE=MichaelQReilly]
Interestingly enough, you are correct that waiters in crappy restaurants actually work a whole lot harderthan in good restaurants. In a good restaurant you would probably have 3-4 tables, a limited wait due to reservations, a well-oiled kitchen, and guests who expect a slower and more leisurely dining experience. Compare that with someone at TGI Fridays who probably has 7 tables, a completely unreliable kitchen, customers who want to get fed and leave, etc. It is interesting that they make far more based soley on menu price.
[/QUOTE]

Wholeheartedly agreed.

Waiters in fine dining establishments usually have other people to do their “bitch-work”, like filling drinks, bringing more bread, running the food out, and clearing the table. So the waiter has little to nothing to do with table maintenance (IMO the hardest part), and yet he makes far more than the guy doing it, and several times what a waiter at Chili’s (who does ALL the work for their tables) would for the same level of service.

I know people who habitually tip higher at nicer restaurants, just because they’re nicer restaurants. They piss me off.

139

[QUOTE=nevermore]
Waiters in fine dining establishments usually have other people to do their “bitch-work”, like filling drinks, bringing more bread, running the food out, and clearing the table. So the waiter has little to nothing to do with table maintenance (IMO the hardest part), and yet he makes far more than the guy doing it, and several times what a waiter at Chili’s (who does ALL the work for their tables) would for the same level of service.
[/QUOTE]

This was my experience too. I bussed my own tables at Pizza Hut; brought the drinks; brought the food – this was before many restaurants, including chains, began using “food runners.” (Although I don’t think PH uses food runners even today.) But then, I kept my own tips, too. At the country club I worked at, I had to split my tips with with the bussers and runners, but with their assistance I personally was doing much less work, and I still made more money – a lot more money. The intentionally slower, more refined nature of the restaurant had a lot to do with it too: people were out for a “nice meal.” They were more likely to order multiple drinks, appetizers, desserts . . . they might be there for an hour and a half. PH was more sit, order, cram your food down, leave. But I could turn over the same table at PH three times and still not make the same tip I’d get off one table at the country club.

140

Wow. Just, wow.

We don’t eat out often here just because there really isn’t anyplace here that serves anything I can’t make as good or better. When I travel I enjoy eating out, and I have never experienced bad service. Maybe because I am out to have a good time, and I always seem to have servers who are personable and do their job well. If I have to wait, well, I’ll wait in the bar and have a drink. If I want something that doesn’t come with the entree and exchanging it seems to be a problem I’ll generally order what I do want as a side and just not eat whatever it is that I didn’t want. If my food is served poorly prepared I don’t take it out on the server, I politely send it back to the kitchen. 20% is the average tip, and fabulous service rates a fabulous tip. Since my party and I are out to have a good time the server is generally included in the conversation in a friendly but not time consuming manner, and joins in appropriately, and everyone is happy. I do have a problem with people who don’t tip appropriately, but when this occurs I just slip some dollars quietly onto the table as I am leaving. When we have a large party (such as my daughter’s reception dinner) we book an area in the restaurant ahead of time, we eat and drink leisurely, and the tips are more than generous. The servers are kept busy, but we all mind our manners and I know that the restaurant is happy to see us whenever we are in town.

I don’t think that we (myself, family and friends) are exceptions to the rule, and when I travel Outside I have similar pleasant experiences dining out so it isn’t just an Alaska thing. I am seriously gobsmacked reading this thread.

Again, wow.