You're a Freaking CPA?

[carlb]

@not_alice

That ios different than the situation at hand, and as an ethical engineer, you are required to recognize this.

If your wife doesn’t do income taxes fine, but that is hardly the same as saying that you don’t do ICs when you do floating vessels. It is more akin to you considering an opportunity to repair a skiff when you have spend your entire career maintaining on a floating Chinese junk, and then acting all surprised when the random potential client tells the world how incompetent you are because your skills repairing floating vessels can’t possibly apply to a vessel of a different shape and size.

I don’t understand; Paul’s complaint appears to be that, based on the questions asked of him and the responses to statements by Paul, the accountant he has engaged to work for him appears to lack competency in the particular area of tax law relevant to Paul’s income taxes. If this is not, in fact, the case, we may be talking around each other.

If I have understood Paul’s complaint properly, then it really comes down to a simple question. Is it ethical to take on work in an area in which one is not sufficiently competent? In my opinion, the answer is clearly and emphatically, “No.” In fact, I’d go so far as to say that the answer is, “Hell, no,” and I can’t imagine a scenario in which my answer would differ.

The rest is just detail, and there is not a lot to go on, but a few assumptions can be made. Paul used the term “CPA” which is primarily an American term (other countries use other terms; it’s “Chartered Accountant” in the UK if I’m not mistaken). Paul is an American citizen, with a problem related to US income taxes, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the accountant he is dealing with is a CPA licensed by a US state. Assuming these details, the AICPA is the go-to organization for questions like this; while they have no legal authority of their own, they provide most of the standards under which the practice of accounting is conducted in the US. It is not unreasonable to look to their ethical standards for guidance.

And, while the difference between my competency regarding pressure vessels v. PLCs may be greater than the difference in my wife’s competency at personal income tax v. international corporate taxation, I think the analogy is apt. My license said “Professional Engineer” and would give the casual observer no clues as to my core competencies. My wife’s license says, “Certified Public Accountant,” and similarly says absolutely nothing about her core competencies. It would be unethical for either of us to engage in work at which we were not competent, and it is our ethical responsibility to self-evaluate, and let a potential client know when proposed work is outside our areas of expertise.

I think it’s ultimately that simple. Is it ethical to work in an area in which one is not sufficiently competent as to serve the client’s needs? I say, No."

[not_alice]

@carlb

I don’t understand; Paul’s complaint appears to be that, based on the questions asked of him and the responses to statements by Paul, the accountant he has engaged to work for him appears to lack competency in the particular area of tax law relevant to Paul’s income taxes. If this is not, in fact, the case, we may be talking around each other.

I read it only as Paul is dissatisfied, not that Paul is in any position to judge the competency of the person in questions, let alone expect us to accept his judgment at face value. Paull has seemed to indicate he needs a better specialist, and also that his situation is so simple he doesn’t need a CPA at all. I give him the benefit of the doubt that his is dissatisfied, but nothing more.

If I have understood Paul’s complaint properly, then it really comes down to a simple question. Is it ethical to take on work in an area in which one is not sufficiently competent?

You haven’t understood his complaint. He didn’t bring up ethics, I think it was me that did that (but it may have been someone else and I was just responding)

In my opinion, the answer is clearly and emphatically, “No.” In fact, I’d go so far as to say that the answer is, “Hell, no,” and I can’t imagine a scenario in which my answer would differ.

Then I would guess that you are not in a profession subject to the sorts of ethics rules quoted above or close enough with anyone who is to discuss them as they are applied not only in theory, but in practice. Am I right about that?

The rest is just detail,

Except all of your suppositions are wrong so far, so any conclusions are going to be suspect at best.

It is not unreasonable to look to their ethical standards for guidance.

I have no quarrel with the ethics as quoted. I assume they or something similar apply. In fact, if Paul thinks there is an ethical problem, he should report it to the appropriate licensing agency. I don’t think he will get far, but it is his call.

My license said “Professional Engineer” and would give the casual observer no clues as to my core competencies. My wife’s license says, “Certified Public Accountant,” and similarly says absolutely nothing about her core competencies.

Same for my bro the attorney and my gf the licensed psychologist, so what? All these groups have similar ethical requirements along the lines discussed, a disgrunteled, no , not even that, a frustrated customer is not evidence of a ethical breach.

It would be unethical for either of us to engage in work at which we were not competent, and it is our ethical responsibility to self-evaluate, and let a potential client know when proposed work is outside our areas of expertise.

And there is not one shred of evidence or even anecdote in this thread that anything of the sort has happened. Just that Paul doesn’t like the advice that he got (or more likely, did not see the transaction all the way to the end I bet)

I think it’s ultimately that simple. Is it ethical to work in an area in which one is not sufficiently competent as to serve the client’s needs? I say, No."

Yet nothing has been alleged, you are floating a straw man. If Paul feels that there is an ethical issue, he should report to the licensing agency, that is what it is there for. If he got someone junior on a bad day, or is simply telling a story to make one party look bad at the expense of another, then, well, interesting yarn is all.

Personally, I think he is just blowing off steam. And I also think that s an engineer, you have spent an entire career stretching your capabilities instead of doing things by rote and only knowing now what you new the day you got your license, am I correct? If I am not correct, how could that be ethical on your part by the standards you have just claimed?

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@billfish678

Thats kinda what I was suggesting in my post. Don’t like paying American taxes, don’t be/stay an American citizen.

Thank you all for your thoughtful thoughts. Although I sometimes get upset I rarely get angry. Further my upset at the US-CPA was more based on the discomfort he caused my Honey by implying I was a tax cheat. But I understand I often get discomforted by things that ought not to trouble me.

Then I read the above.

Bite me. If I do not like paying taxes, I ought to give up my birthright? Bite me. Remarkably, citizen may have any opinion about paying taxes they like. Further it is well-eatablished law that we may arrange our affairs as we like to minimize taxation. So simply bite me.

You do know that non-citizens do in fact pay taxes? My US income would still be taxable without regard to my citizenship. Further, my non-US income would still be non-taxable in the US without regard to my citizenship.

So, as we say in Arabic, bite me.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@not_alice

Really? I would think that being a CPA carries with it ethical obligations. Is that one of them? Because it seems counter-intuitive to suggest that no professional should do anything that other than mundane and routine.

Fair point, but dealing with foreign income, especially in a country like Saudi Arabia, whose tax code is utterly incomprehensible to someone only familiar with our own, is a bit beyond “not mundane and routine”.

I assume there are lots of resources available to tax professionals who need to file amended returns for the shareholders of a partnership which was incorporated midway through the tax year (or whatever).

I assume there are not a lot of resources available to tax professionals who need to know things about the Saudi tax code.

@Kimmy_Gibbler

Perhaps that’s why the Third Circuit affirmed its dismissal it more than a year ago.

Just because my analysis is three years out of date, it doesn’t make it any less insightful, man.

[not_alice]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Fair point, but dealing with foreign income, especially in a country like Saudi Arabia, whose tax code is utterly incomprehensible to someone only familiar with our own, is a bit beyond “not mundane and routine”.

The OP seemed upset about things that he thought should be routine and mundane to the CPA he was in contact with. Primarily about US tax codes, not Saudi ones. At least that was how I read it.

[billfish678]

@Paul_in_Qatar

.

So, as we say in Arabic, bite me.

Don’t let the door hit your behind on the way out then

[SecondJudith]

Why does the US tax income from foreign-resident citizens? It’s the only country I know of that does so.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@not_alice

The OP seemed upset about things that he thought should be routine and mundane to the CPA he was in contact with. Primarily about US tax codes, not Saudi ones. At least that was how I read it.

Yes, exactly. The same sort of problem I have when American companies and web sites insist I must have a zip code. Sometimes the idea people live outside the US puzzles them.

Again, thank you for your many thoughtful posts.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@not_alice

The OP seemed upset about things that he thought should be routine and mundane to the CPA he was in contact with. Primarily about US tax codes, not Saudi ones. At least that was how I read it.

He was upset about the CPA’s understanding of the US tax code as it relates to income earned abroad, which requires an understanding of the tax system of the foreign source.

[Ludovic]

@billfish678

Don’t let the door hit your behind on the way out then

So why don’t you start a GD thread supporting your idea that American citizen’s non-US income should be fully taxable?

[ZipperJJ]

@Paul_in_Qatar

Yes, exactly. The same sort of problem I have when American companies and web sites insist I must have a zip code. Sometimes the idea people live outside the US puzzles them.

@Wikipedia

In February 2005, 117 of the 190 member countries of the Universal Postal Union had postal code systems.

You should just type “00000” and get on with your life. No reason to hate.

[not_alice]

@Paul_in_Qatar

Yes, exactly. The same sort of problem I have when American companies and web sites insist I must have a zip code. Sometimes the idea people live outside the US puzzles them.

Again, thank you for your many thoughtful posts.

Uh, as a pioneer in the field of software internationalization and localization, I take exception to that. I am extremely sensitive to these matters as they are presented on any web form I come across.

I can not recall any web site I have ever seen that insists an individual must have a zip code. Everyone knows zip codes are for places, not poeple, a certain old "yo’ mama: joke notwithstanding

Now, if you want to say some forms have zip codes as a required field and you don’t have anything other than made up data to enter into it, that is a different matter.

Why do you suppose it is that web sites don’t implement either a very general case, or adjust themselves based on your location? I have worked on that specific issue in the past, and related issues as well related to time, currency, language of text and dialect, among other locale-related issues, and I know of on-going efforts to make all these things possible.

But I am curious Paul - what do you think the reason is that every or even any web form does not act perfectly for your Saudi-related locale data? I am sincerely interested, it’s the kind of feedback that can be useful in changing things eventually.

But as for the CPA, to be honest, I am still not clear if the guy you are talking about is in the US or wherever you are, and I also wondered what caused you to use him in the first place? Recommendation? Convenient storefront?

I wonder too if you think that all CPAs and tax preparers are equal in skill and completely interchangeable? I don’t think they are, but maybe you do?

[VinylTurnip]

@ZipperJJ

You should just type “00000” and get on with your life. No reason to hate.

I don’t know how prevalent it is, but I’ve seen web forms that attempted to validate the zip code against the address/city/state entered, returning an error if the zip code were invalid (e.g., 00000) or didn’t match the address.

[ZipperJJ]

@VinylTurnip

I don’t know how prevalent it is, but I’ve seen web forms that attempted to validate the zip code against the address/city/state entered, returning an error if the zip code were invalid (e.g., 00000) or didn’t match the address.

Wouldn’t such an elaborate system also know if a zip code wasn’t required? If so, you delete the value after being told it’s wrong and have only lost a moment of your time.

[VinylTurnip]

@ZipperJJ

Wouldn’t such an elaborate system also know if a zip code wasn’t required?

You’d think, right?

[Cat_Whisperer]

@VinylTurnip

I don’t know how prevalent it is, but I’ve seen web forms that attempted to validate the zip code against the address/city/state entered, returning an error if the zip code were invalid (e.g., 00000) or didn’t match the address.

My zip code for websites that require one is always 90210.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@ZipperJJ

You should just type “00000” and get on with your life. No reason to hate.

Postal codes =/= zip codes.

Most countries which use postal codes use a variation of the UK system, which uses alpha and numeric characters.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

(You know you people are completely ruining my poor attempt at a rant. Darn your reason and reflection!)

So to put you all in your place, I Googled my ‘zip code’ of 31952, expecting to prove it would be some town in Ohio. Remarkably, it only seems to identify Al-Khobar Saudi Arabia. You learn something new every day. Imagine that.

(Darn you all, darn you all to heck! :))

[BigT]

@Cat_Whisperer

My zip code for websites that require one is always 90210.

You, too?

[Gary_Kumquat]

@Paul_in_Qatar

(You know you people are completely ruining my poor attempt at a rant. Darn your reason and reflection!)

So to put you all in your place, I Googled my ‘zip code’ of 31952, expecting to prove it would be some town in Ohio. Remarkably, it only seems to identify Al-Khobar Saudi Arabia. You learn something new every day. Imagine that.

(Darn you all, darn you all to heck! :))

Holy shit, you’re in Al-Khobar? I’m going back in 3 weeks. I’d offer to meet you for a pint but ever since they shut down the Smith bar I’m lacking a local.