Yvette Felarca: heroine? ... or terrorist?

[BigT]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Yes, that’s pretty much the “out”. The problem is that when you’ve pretty much defined anyone who disagrees with you as “intolerant” (or something comparable) and used this “out” for them, then it loses much of its effectiveness.

The problem with your argument is that the Left has not done this. That’s the excuse used by the Right to try and discredit us. We define intolerance the same way we define tolerance, just in reverse. We tell you that tolerance means accepting gay people. Thus intolerance is not accepting gay people. We tell you that tolerance means letting trans people use the bathroom of their choice. So insisting on seeing their birth certificate is being intolerant.

I will admit that I’ve met some people who actually do cry “racist” or “alt right” to anyone who disagrees with them. But that’s not the Left as a whole.

I’ll tell you, I am just as intolerant of those assholes as I am of racists and such. Because they are intolerant assholes. I’ve even attacked them here. The problem is that some on the Right think this is every single liberal, because they don’t want to listen to what any liberal has to say.

Sure, I do usually try to be nice at first, because it can always be a misunderstanding or a mistake. But I cannot and will not tolerate bigotry of any kind.

[SteveG1]

@BigT

The problem with your argument is that the Left has not done this. That’s the excuse used by the Right to try and discredit us. We define intolerance the same way we define tolerance, just in reverse. We tell you that tolerance means accepting gay people. Thus intolerance is not accepting gay people. We tell you that tolerance means letting trans people use the bathroom of their choice. So insisting on seeing their birth certificate is being intolerant.

I will admit that I’ve met some people who actually do cry “racist” or “alt right” to anyone who disagrees with them. But that’s not the Left as a whole.

I’ll tell you, I am just as intolerant of those assholes as I am of racists and such. Because they are intolerant assholes. I’ve even attacked them here. The problem is that some on the Right think this is every single liberal, because they don’t want to listen to what any liberal has to say.

Sure, I do usually try to be nice at first, because it can always be a misunderstanding or a mistake. But I cannot and will not tolerate bigotry of any kind.

I’ll take it further. Tolerance doesn’t mean you are required to approve. Tolerance doesn’t mean you have to like. Tolerance doesn’t mean you have to share your milk and cookies.

Tolerance means you are willing to leave people alone to live their own lives as they see fit.

Intolerance means forcing them, through social pressure, laws, or threats, or brute force, to stay invisible or conform (or else).

Some people have a big problem with the leave others alone part (the alt right, Nazis etc). And we do NOT have to tolerate intolerance. We can use our own social pressure, we can decide the never buy anything from you, we can ostracize you, we can ridicule you, we can toss you out of office.

And when certain groups are known for advocating the worst sorts of violence - on an industrial scale - and that one group actually started WW2 yet still has “fan boys”, well FUCK. No one should respect them. They don’t deserve any respect or courtesy.

Free speech and free expression go both ways. So when we say “fuck those bastards”, that is free. fucking. speech.

The one over simplistic limit is, “the right to extend your arm ends at the tip of my nose”.

[octopus]

@septimus

Wrong. The defence of evil on legalisms is an underlying theme in this thread.

I asked whether those happy that the Nazis stabbed the antifas, sending several to hospitals were of the same ilk that were happy to see Zimmerman acquitted of his depraved-heart murder of Martin. None of the Nazi supporters answered. I think that silence is an answer.

Before the first video? No, the “antifas” were happy to use force first. The name of their organization is By Any Means Necessary. Between the 1st and 2nd videos there was a general melee in which antifas attacked Nazis with rocks(?), and some of the Nazis responded by stabbing with knives. I don’t argue that the Nazis had no right to “stand their ground”: certainly the “antifas” were standing theirs.

But the main “fact” that people are missing is that there is more at stake here than one incident in Sacramento.

Racist anti-immigrant feelings have been on the rise all over Europe. Many of us liked to imagine that America was a special melting-pot but lately, especially with the rise of Donald Trump, that veneer is shattered. Democracy(*) is on the decline. Racist Nazi demonstrations are on the rise in the West, along with anti-Nazi counterprotests. Expect to see this get worse before it gets better.

(* - Democracy refers to liberty, equality, fraternity. Contrary to Trumpists and Nazis it does NOT mean the 51% can do whatever they ant to the 49%.)

What is to be done? Elect a Trump and then just say “Ho hum. Maybe the Nazis will get apathetic after deporting a million or two and things will return to normal” ? Or take to the ballot boxes and streets and fight racism and Naziism? I don’t know.

One thing I do know: Blacks didn’t get the right to vote by sitting back and saying “Ho hum. Maybe whites will get tired of persecuting us after a while.” Instead MLK raised America’s conscience … but Malcolm X and the Black Panthers played their roles.

Will the BAMN movement do more good than harm. I don’t know. That’s why I started this thread: Is she a heroine? … or just a terrorist? But I have no sympathy for those whose “take-away” is only “whine whine, she assaulted a Nazi and didn’t get arrested. Unfair. Next thing, not only will Nazi activists be at risk but ordinary racist assholes like us will be at risk too!”

There are no Nazi supporters in this thread you dishonest fool. There are free speech supporters. And this thread is not about Zimmerman. Your debate tactics are reprehensible and dishonest.

[octopus]

@BigT

They are harming people other than themselves. Racism is inherently harmful. Being racist in public in an attempt to change our government is harmful.

Americans have used violence to fight bigotry throughout our country’s history. It’s not ideal, but it happens. Trying to brand it as “un-American” is ignoring American civil rights history.

The main argument here is whether it’s actually helpful. Not some weird appeal to patriotism.

I used to feel bad so many people called you BigTard but I guess it’s earned.

[excavating_for_a_mind]

@SteveG1

… No one should respect them. They don’t deserve any respect or courtesy.
…

You are correct, they don’t deserve any respect or courtesy, other than the respect and courtesy any human being deserves. Of course, if you consider them to be sub-human…

It’s kinda tough to claim the moral high-ground when you’re rolling around the muck with them.

[SteveG1]

@excavating_for_a_mind

You are correct, they don’t deserve any respect or courtesy, other than the respect and courtesy any human being deserves. Of course, if you consider them to be sub-human…

It’s kinda tough to claim the moral high-ground when you’re rolling around the muck with them.

I don’t physically threaten or physically attack them. That’s all they get from me. As for subhuman — considering what they are all about, what they want and what they preach, yes I think they ARE subhuman.
So sue me.

[septimus]

My intent was to post support for Jefferson in his thread “Has Political Correctness Gone Mad?” but that thread got closed. Rather than start a new thread, I’m bumping this one.

I’m not at all sure that magellan is “racist.” I’ve found myself going along with the in-crowd in some of the anti-magellan threads just because I disagree with his opinions.

Another confession (feel free to call me a hypocrite if you wish): If the ideologies in the Yvette Felarca encounter were reversed — if this were a neo-Nazi punk pushing around a BLM demonstrator, say — I’d be ranting loudly the other way: Why didn’t the cops arrest the punk?

It’s easy for progressives to demonize right-wingers but their opinions, even if wrong, are sincere. If we met by chance we might be friends … until politics were discussed. And just as progressives find it hard to imagine right-wing thinking without connecting it to evil or racism or stupidity or such, so the situation is reversed! Right-wingers often honestly think their views are correct and righteous and have trouble comprehending how liberals can think as they do unless they’re sinful or stupid or something.

Surely this polarization has gotten much worse in recent decades. Most of us blame the liars at FoxNews, but lets give credit to Jefferson’s link for pointing out that there’s blame on the other side also: “Political correctness” run amok.

Wouldn’t it be sweet if there were some way those on the left and right could sit down together, acknowledge each others’ humanity and sincerity, and seek common ground? I hope America will move in that direction somehow; the polarization is getting ever worse and may lead to ever-increasing tragedy.

Disclaimer: Right-wing stupidity really does annoy me much more than left-wing stupidity, and I will be ranting and shrieking about it again as soon as I sober up. Do as I say, not as I do!

[Ale]

@septimus

My intent was to post support for Jefferson in his thread “Has Political Correctness Gone Mad?” but that thread got closed. Rather than start a new thread, I’m bumping this one.

I’m not at all sure that magellan is “racist.” I’ve found myself going along with the in-crowd in some of the anti-magellan threads just because I disagree with his opinions.

Another confession (feel free to call me a hypocrite if you wish): If the ideologies in the Yvette Felarca encounter were reversed — if this were a neo-Nazi punk pushing around a BLM demonstrator, say — I’d be ranting loudly the other way: Why didn’t the cops arrest the punk?

It’s easy for progressives to demonize right-wingers but their opinions, even if wrong, are sincere. If we met by chance we might be friends … until politics were discussed. And just as progressives find it hard to imagine right-wing thinking without connecting it to evil or racism or stupidity or such, so the situation is reversed! Right-wingers often honestly think their views are correct and righteous and have trouble comprehending how liberals can think as they do unless they’re sinful or stupid or something.

Surely this polarization has gotten much worse in recent decades. Most of us blame the liars at FoxNews, but lets give credit to Jefferson’s link for pointing out that there’s blame on the other side also: “Political correctness” run amok.

Wouldn’t it be sweet if there were some way those on the left and right could sit down together, acknowledge each others’ humanity and sincerity, and seek common ground? I hope America will move in that direction somehow; the polarization is getting ever worse and may lead to ever-increasing tragedy.

Disclaimer: Right-wing stupidity really does annoy me much more than left-wing stupidity, and I will be ranting and shrieking about it again as soon as I sober up. Do as I say, not as I do!

Good on you for writing that.

I’ve been meaning to write a long response to this post but I can’t find the time (I’m running late for work even now), but I encourage you to listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3gOoOSdhY

It’s about the importance of open dialog and the importance of exposing oneself to ideas that challenge your own.