"Zee" vs "Zed" in the UK

Thank you for reasserting the very point I was making.

Because American culture is vastly more popular in other English-speaking countries than the reverse. It’s just a matter of population and influence.

And for the record, I use the word ‘zed’ all the time, there is a word I’m regularly asked to spell which contains it.

I have never had an American not understand. They might engage in some lamely predictable mockery (“awight guvna!” or “don’t you mean zee?”) but they always understand.

So no, I don’t think Americans are stupid. Of course we all have random factual blindspots, things that pass us by, but I would be inclined to think an American adult who didn’t know about zed both ignorant and stupid.

pdts

I’m not unfamiliar with zed. I said so in my reply five or so posts up from yours.

All I’m saying is that it’s not common at all in the US. A lot of people know it, but not everyone. And saying that someone who doesn’t know it is stupid is just completely missing the point that people have to go out of their way to be exposed to British media in the US while the Brits can’t get enough of our American media (which they then call trash and crap on boards such as this one).

I see a lot of really dismissive, vitriolic posts aimed at “stupid” or “insular” Americans, and I don’t think that’s very fair. America is a huge place, filled with a lot of unique and diverse cultures. The south is a very different place from the northeast, or even the midwest. Our regions are very similar to the different countries in Europe (the only difference being that we all speak Americanized English), and that’s discounting all of the immigrant cultures that surround us here.

For instance, I saw a poster make an off-hand comment about how a woman in a hotel didn’t recognize zed as the letter Z, and to be honest, THAT baffles me. If a German-speaking person pronounced it as “zeit,” would you be giving them as much trouble? Some Spanish-speaking people pronounce Z with a “th” sound; I doubt they’d readily recognize “zed” either. But since we’re Americans, a lot of people in the world instantly dismiss us as stupid.

As a final point, the total population of the US is somewhere above 300 million. Britain is around 60 million, Australia is above 20 million, and Canada is a little above 30 million. This means three times as many people pronounce Z as “zee” compared to “zed.” I guess a valid argument could be made for who pronounced what first, but language drifts! Try to keep up! :smiley:

And as others pointed out in this thread, children in the UK, Canada and Australia are learning “The Alphabet Song” (complete with Zee) at a very wrong age. Zed is likely not long for this world due to sheer numbers.

Nah, children learn it as ‘zed’. But they generally learn both. The alphabet song in schools doesn’t rhyme, it ends with zed. Probably won’t phase out, there’s no reason for it to.

Re: the bolded bit. In this thread? The only person who said that Americans were insular has America as his own location. The rest are saying that individual Americans would be dim if they didn’t know ‘zed’ because they think Americans, on the whole, have good enough general knowledge to know something like that.

You’re being a little oversensitive if you think that’s dismissive or vitriolic.

FWIW, I’d be surprised if a German speaker said ‘zeit’ for z, since ‘zeit’ means ‘time.’ :smiley:

Sorry, I’m not buying it.

I have travelled widely in the United States, including spending 5 weeks going coast to coast in an SUV. Though I am about as far from being an expert on American culture as you can get, I do think two things. Firstly, America is not that big. Canada and Russia are extraordinarily larger. Yes, the USA is a very large country (what is it, 3rd or 4th by size?). But you can drive across it in 3 days. Try driving across Russia in that time.

The local cultures are not, so far as I can tell, that different. A lot of it seems to be the narcissism of small differences. Much of the diet, media consumption, religious life and geographical layout (town/city planning focussed around the car) are very similar. There is certainly far more difference between, say, Scotland and Greece than between Arkansas and California.

I don’t mean this as an argument from authority, of which I have little, but just want to point out that it’s not an obvious fact that the US is unusually large or diverse. China has, I think, vastly more cultural diversity (though 4-5 times as many people, of course).

I really like America and could see spending the rest of my life here. But please let’s not turn every criticism of Americans into “wah, they would never pick on anyone else like this!” It’s undignified.

More American exceptionalism? Comparing it with a different language is not really a fair comparison. A better comparison would be this. France is far, far bigger than Belgium, in every respect. But there is no way in hell that if the Francophone Belgians and every other Francophone country, on every continent had a different name for the last letter of the alphabet, then that wouldn’t be the sort of thing one would consider a Frenchman ignorant and perhaps stupid for not knowing. That is, I think, a fairer comparison.

This is closer to a good argument. But a couple of things. First, you’re overlooking countries where, though not many be fluent English speakers, they number in the millions, and British zeddy English is (for now) something of a lingua franca, or at least the more common version of English. I’m thinking of South Africa and India, but also the Singapore and Hong-Kong influenced elements of Chinese civilisation.

But even ignoring that, you end up with 2/3 of English speakers saying zee, and 1/3 saying zed. In a lifetime of media consumption, that’s hardly the overwhelming ratio that would justify this sort of “they are so small, how could we know!” sort of reaction.

pdts

You’re right, this thread is pretty tame. Not that this excuses my exaggeration, but there have been a ton of threads, on a ton of different subjects, that play into the common theme of the insular, isolationist American.

One correction about German Z and “zeit.” I did a quick google search and came across a pronunciation site that has native speakers pronouncing letters and words. To my ear, their mp3 of Z sounded like “zeit” with a clear T at the end of the word.

As for my “american exceptionalism,” I think comparing it to another language, especially German, to be fair. English is a Germanic language, is it not? With roots going back further? With French romance influences? Spanish and German are then perfectly valid comparisons, and they do not pronounce Z as “zed.”

Lastly, I’d like to point out that the vast majority of Americans experience American media, whereas the rest of the world sees a mix of American and local media. It seems reasonable to me, then, that while you’re perfectly aware of how we pronounce Z, we’re not so knowledgeable about yours. Therefore, how could we know? :smiley:

Possibly. But all the parents whom I know are scrupulous in correcting any ‘zee’ that crops up in their children’s pronunciation.

What is this if not an admission of American insularity?

pdts

The German for ‘z’ is ‘tzet’ or ‘zet,’ with an e sound like in bed, rather different to the ‘eye’ sound in Zeit.

How about a counter-counterexample: When I was in grade school, I read an American children’s novel set in mid-19th century midwest America. In it, an illiterate girl is taught the alphabet, and she learns that the last letter is named Zed. She takes a fancy to that one letter, and practices writing it repeatedly, saying “How I do love that Zed.” It was the first time I’d ever come across that lettername, and I think I assumed it was a backwoods hick pronunciation (because it rhymes with “Jed”). It was only later that I learned it was standard/posh in the UK.

Sometimes I can’t believe how many random literary factoids I have stored away up in my brain’s attic.

No idea why “zed” would have appeared in a post-Websterian American setting, though. Odd.