These reports claim otherwise:
Well, there were, in fact, observers present. I saw some footage shot inside the prison, and a reporter was right there covering the story.
So fine, you are sceptical, but all the news I have seen confirms that the prisoners were armed and attacking the guards after they had surrendered. Under those circumstances, I’d say the response was reasonable and appropriate.
It’s true that “shot while trying to escape” is an old trick, but that doesn’t mean that it’s automatically a lie every time. And in this case, it’s more like “shot while trying to shoot the guards first.”
And where did you hear the US was “encouraging” the Afghanis to fight dirty? If anything, we’ve been cautioning them to hold back, pointing out that the rest of the world is far more inclined to give food and rebuilding money to those seen as moderates rather than frothing-at-the-mouth fanatics.
Media reports in the west have also tended to assume that any foreigners in Afghanistan must be supporters of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida, but this is not necessarily so.
[/quote]
Oh, you mean like those 6 missionaries held for 3 months in Taleban prisons? They were foreigners, yes?
Uh, yeah, and the assholes who hijacked airplanes on September 11 thought they were doing Allah’s will, too. Thinking oneself holy doesn’t make one innocent.
Hmm… communists (a foregin doctrine) topple the monarchy… the Soviets (a foreign power) invade… bin Laden & Co. (Arabs, again, foreginers) invade, provide support to Taleban regime, set up terrorist training camps… US shows up to hunt down and/or bomb into oblivion Al-Qaeda because we’re pissed about the smoking crater in lower Manhattan…
Yeah, I’d have to say a lot of Afghanistan’s current problems are due to foreigners. Maybe that’s why they aren’t very fond of non-Afghanis, hmmm?
The concept of polling the “common people” is limited to democracies, which Afghanistan never has been and still isn’t. Even so… there has been informal polling by the news media. Reaction is mixed. Some folks there hate the US, some hate all foreigners, including Muslim foreigners, some consider bin Laden a hero, some just wish everyone would go away and leave them alone, some welcome the current intervention because they were suffering under the Taleban and hope this will be a change for the better.
And what the fuck business is it of Pakistan? It’s not their country. Pakistan screwing around with the Afghanistan power structure helped make this mess.
As I said, I don’t think America is encouraging it - if anything, we are trying to discourage reprisals and summary executions.
Get this - we are NOT trying to conquer Afghanistan, or run that country. Yes, we are interferring but frankly we don’t want the country once we get what we’re after (Al-Qaeda) and our main request is that we don’t have to do this dog-and-pony show again in the future. It’s the Afghanis who are doing the fighting and taking back their cities, not the US Marines. We are lending assistance because, for our, we have mutual interests. But we do not control the Northern Alliance.
You know, sometimes we are NOT the bad guys.
Former Argenbright Security personnel.
:: D&R ::
b.
I don’t mean to put words in aegypt’s mouth but I think s/he meant that they should encourage them to follow the Geneva accord.
And where in the Geneva Convention does it say you can’t shoot POWs who have armed themselves and are attempting to kill their captors and/or escape?
I’d also like to point out that aegypt has yet to present a single shred of evidence to indicate that this was an intentional slaughter of helpless prisoners. It’s put up or shut up time, bud.
There is no evidence it was anything else than what it has been reported to be. I have seen enough footage to convince me of that including the one where a NA guy gets his head blown off and rolls down the hill. The US air force is helping with airstrikes and some americans on the ground have been hurt. I am pretty sure it is what they say it is. Or why would the american guys on the ground call in for air strikes?
Um, okay. I’ve read this thread twice over. I think I understand what was said. So I’m gonna take this quote and respond to it as if it were not as obvious as a cold sore on the Pope. Correct me if I’m wrong, aegypt.
Yes, perhaps they’re there to see the sights. Perhaps they’re there to take the mountain stream waters. I suppose that it’s possible that Afghanistan is now just like Saudi Arabia, with millions of muslims from all over the world passing through to worship the destroyed artifacts of other religions.
Or maybe, just maybe, they are some of the thousands of terrorists who were being processed through al-Qaeda’s terrorist goddamned motherfucking kamikaze training camps!!!
Jesus fucking Christ! You don’t just go to Afghanistan, muslim or not! It’s a shithole, middle of nowhere godforsaken war torn mess! If you were a “foreigner,” and fighting with the Taliban, and smuggling arms into a prison, you were there for one of two reasons: you were a fucking terrorist, or you were there to help the fucking terrorists. Either way, you bought a ticket to Hell, and good riddance, you’re dead–or should be.
God damn! How in the name of St. Vitus’ dancing foreskin are you going to know anything in a war with more certitude than this?
Please, stop, stop! You’re ripping my heart out.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of people.
These are exactly the ones who have most facilitated the carnage of bin Laden and al-Qaeda. I hope they all die slowly. Preferably from gut shots.
You want something worth worrying about? Try Africa, where between one in four and every other person has AIDS. There’s something to worry about. Some meddling throwback bastards getting ventilated because they don’t want to receive their proper comeuppance just doesn’t cut any ice with me.
Broomstick says:
“And what the fuck business is it of Pakistan? It’s not their country. Pakistan screwing around with the Afghanistan power structure helped make this mess.”
My reply:
Pakistan borders Afghanistan. The majority of people there are also the same ethnic group as the majority in Afghanistan. The Pakistanis think that the Northern Alliance is a puppet of India, and will effectively aid India to triangulate and strangle Pakistan if they come into power in Afghanistan. Also, about 2/3 of the refugees from Afghanistan live in Pakistan or near the Pakistan border. For these reasons it is very much Pakistan’s business what goes on in Afghanistan.
I’m afraid the reality is a little bit less comic-book black and white than that. Believe it or not, but Afghanistan under the Taliban was being touted as something of a Islamist fundie Utopia, a sort of return to an imagined Islamic past, and a lot of misguided young people went there for that reason. Just goes to show that one man’s shithole is another man’s promised land (no homoerotic overtones intended).
Chechens went there to receive training for their guerilla war against the Russians, and Kashmiri went there for similar reasons.
Many Pakistanis went there more to support their Pashtun brethren than anything else.
And many foreigners have been there since the days of the Russian occupation, being unable to return to their home countries.
So I don’t think it’s that clear that all foreigners in Afghanistan are just recent graduates of Suicide Bombing 101.
Having said that, I’m sure there were genuine terrorist shitbags among the prisoners, people who went to Afghanistan to learn how to make explosives and hijack planes. Don’t you think it would be better to find out which ones, and interrogate them?
I realize the incident may just have been an avoidable fiasco rather than a convenient way to get rid of some inconvenient prisoners, but I reserve the right to be just a little bit sceptical. Nonetheless, I’m somewhat embarrased to find that I have a hard time summoning up any real sympathy for either the NA or the Taliban. Neither is cute, cuddly and adorable enough.
>> So I don’t think it’s that clear that all foreigners in Afghanistan are just recent graduates of Suicide Bombing 101
We are not arguing about who they were. What we are discussing is whether the incident was just their extermination or whether they rioted and fought and there was no other way to control them. The evidence is pretty clear that they fought fiercely for two days to the death. I do not care if it was mother Theresa. They fought and they lost.
Well, if they’d of put down their machine guns and rocket launchers, interogation may have been an option. Problem looks like they wouldn’t do that.
They forced the issue.
Well, isn’t that just skippy
Just because you live next door to someone gives you no vote in their government. US lives next to Cuba, yes? We’ve often been displeased with Mexico, yes? Yes, we express our opinions, occassionally vote with our dollars, and deal with Cubans washing up on our shores, but we do not blatantly back one faction and supply them with assistance. Yet that is what Pakistan did - back when they had that female prime minister (whose name I can’t recall at the moment) they backed the Taleban mainly because it was Muslim and Pashtun, giving money, arms, and technical expertise. What a fucking brilliant move! Granted, initinially the Tableban didn’t appear as nasty as they eventually became, but Pakistan also helped make this current mess. They supported the regime that decided to oppress rather than govern, resulting in widespread famine and refugees pouring over their borders. Worried the Northern Alliance is a puppet of India? Well, maybe the north of Afgahnistan was worried the Taleban was a puppet of Pakistan, hmm?
Pakistan is a paranoid state with a definite extremist faction who think the Taleban world view and “solution” is paradise on Earth - and they have nuclear weapons! Just another pile of fucking wannabe empire builders justifying their meddling and expansion as “self defense” from an enemy that, most likely, would do no more than glower at them over the border if they would just stop being so fucking belligerent!
If everyone had stayed the fuck out of Afghanistan in the first place there would most likely still be a monarchy there and, aside from intertribal feuds, it would be a relatively calm part of the world.
Can you be so sure?
Here’s what Amnesty International has to say, and I agree wholeheartedly:
And yes, I agree it’s beside the point who these people really were.
I’d guess it was the smuggling in of machine guns and rocket launchers. You know that’s frowned upon where prisoners of war are concerned…
>> Can you be so sure?
I have seen footage of the fighting and read reports from independent reporters and they all pretty much paint the same picture with no contradictions. AFAIK there are no first hand reports indicating otherwise. So, yes, I am reasonably sure.
How about this article in today’s Times?
“General Abdul Rashid Dostum, a senior Northern Alliance commander, warned journalists to stay away from the southern section of the fort where the prisoners had been held, including a field with the bodies of about 50 fighters whose hands were tied behind their backs with black scarves.”
Some fighters, huh? Firing Kalashnikovs with both hands tied behind their backs. Good thing the General kept the journalists from looking too closely - it might have ended in tears!
Which Times? There’s nothing in the LA Times. Got a link?
Broomstick:
From your post…
“US lives next to Cuba, yes? We’ve often been displeased with Mexico, yes? Yes, we express our opinions, occassionally vote with our dollars, and deal with Cubans washing up on our shores…but we do not blatantly back one faction and supply them with assistance”
Three words, bud.
Bay of Pigs.
Of course it’s Pakistan’s business. Realistically, it is everyone who borders Afghanistan’s business, plus a few other more remote, more powerful countries. There’s no point in setting up a government in Afghanistan unless all ther neighbours are happy as well as the Afghanis, partly because most people from that part of the world think in terms of ethnic or religious grouping, which don’t fit in neatly with country borders but also because the neighbours will not stop messing around in the affairs of Afghanistan unless they’re happy with the incumbent power. And maybe not even then.