Zoid, a full response to your lame-ass analogy

[Mangetout]

****I didn’t get a chance to respond completely to your analogy-based question in this thread:

@Zoid

So when your kid is getting bullied at school you’re going to tell him to be pragmatic? That’s the way to deal with a problem?

To keep the analogy relevant, I will base it as closely as possible on the scenario discussed in that thread. Here’s how I imagine the conversation would proceed:
Offspring: Dad! Dad! I’m being terribly bullied at school! I want you to stomp right in there and demand that they change the rules so this can’t ever happen again!

Mangetout: Crikey! What happened? Did someone hit you or hurt you?

O: Well, not physically, but he said something really horrible - it was just as bad as those awful terrible homophobes and misogynists!

**M: **Blimey! That does sound bad. OK, start at the beginning and tell me exactly what happened.

O: We were talking about Superman and stuff, then this guy stuck his head into the room and said God doesn’t exist.

M: OK, then what? Did he confront you or face up to you or something? Did he back you into a corner?

O: He went away, but he was really, horribly insulting to me. He said I was stupid and that I believe in fairy tales. I was so humiliated!

M: He said that directly to you?

O: Well, no, not directly to me - he just sort of looked through the door and said it to the room…

M: But he said you were stupid? And that you believe in fairy tales?

O: Well, no, he didn’t actually say that. He left straight after saying “God doesn’t exist”, but I’m really sure he implied all those horrible offensive things by what he said. How could he be so mean?!

M: [putting on a jacket] Right, I’m going out and we’ll try to sort this out!

O: You’re going to the school to tell them to change the rules?

M: No, I’m going to the store to buy you some calcium supplement. Maybe it’s not too late for you to grow a fucking spine.

[jimbuff314]

Cool! A British pitting. This should be bloody classy! With hands-on experience for moral guidance as well. I can tell.

[Miller]

[Moderating]
I’m pretty sure there’s no way this thread won’t eventually turn into a discussion of the moderator actions that inspired the original thread, but I’m willing to give you guys a chance to prove me wrong. Just a fair warning, though: if I wake up tomorrow and there’s a bunch of posts in this thread about the ruling in Cafe Society, pro or con, I’m going to be a dick about it.
[/Moderating]

[Mangetout]

Thank you. Yes - I did not intend or wish to discuss moderator actions or board rules in this thread.

[orangeapples]

@jimbuff314

Cool! A British pitting. This should be bloody classy! With hands-on experience for moral guidance as well. I can tell.

Just finished re-watching Peep Show on Netflix, so I had Mark (David Mitchell) as ‘M’ and Jez (Robert Webb) as ‘O’ in my head the whole time. Which was awesome!

[MrDibble]

Well, now that’s how I read it too

The weird part being that Mangetout looks much more like Webb than Mitchell.

[Novelty_Bobble]

I’m in full support of Mangetout’s position here.

Having read the full original thread (that is time I’m never getting back) I can say with certainty that having someone simply opine that a God is a fictional character is in no way, shape or form, bullying.
It is akin to being told that “Leeds are shit” (I know, I was that child)

Certainly I think that every God so far described is a fictional character…am I bullying anyone? Am I calling anyone stupid? Am I belittling anyone?

However, though I agree with the position, I think this is weak sauce for a pitting. It was just little clumsy over-extended analogy from Zoid after all.

But let’s face it, something from that thread has to spark a pit thread doesn’t it?

And yes, having dialogue read in character by Mark and Jezz is definitely helpful and I intend to do more of that in my head from now on.

[Mangetout]

I was in two minds whether to pit it, but the incremental escalation from someone making a single drive-by comment, to its equivalency with directed personal attack, homophobia, misogyny and bullying is just ridiculous, and frankly, I think it’s probably insulting to people who have been real victims of homophobia etc.

[MrDibble]

I don’t think this is really a Pitting of zoid, per se, so much as the original thread having been closed, where are you going to reply? Might have worked in IMHO, maybe?

[Mangetout]

It’s a pitting of a hopelessly flawed argument, not so much a person. I considered starting a debate on the topic, but it doesn’t look like non-hysterical argument is possible.

And yes, it’s weak, because I don’t normally pit anything.

[don_t_ask]

@Novelty_Bobble

It is akin to being told that “Leeds are shit” (I know, I was that child)

Surely you are being argumentative here. While I definitely don’t believe in the existence of God, the idea that he does exist is surely more defensible than the idea that Leeds aren’t shit?

[armedmonkey]

The thing is, Mangetout, you are both full of shit. Zoid’s lame ass analogy was in response to your post saying this:

@Mangetout

They are, or would be, a very small problem if they were just ignored. I think there is a real possibility that moderating them will make them a bigger problem than they are at the moment.
That’s not the same as saying they’re good and lovely; it’s just pragmatism - if the solution makes the problem more acute, it’s not actually a solution.

That’s like saying we should just ignore racists because they’re just a small problem. I’m sorry, I just can’t get behind your position that we should just ignore offensive posts because they are just a “small problem”. I’m not saying that Czarcasm and his ilk are racists, of course, that’s my own lame ass analogy. But they are bigots. Their bigotry is based on religion, and that shouldn’t just get a free pass.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@don_t_ask

surely you are being argumentative here. While i definitely don’t believe in the existence of god, the idea that he does exist is surely more defensible than the idea that leeds aren’t shit?

aaaaarrrrgghhhhhhhhhh!!!..heretic!

[Mangetout]

Someone opining that god is fictional, then walking away, is a non-problem. Its nothing like homophobia, misogyny, personal direct attack, or now, for fucks sake, racism.

It is not comparable to any of those things or it would need to be ruled against in every forum.

[Mangetout]

Or to put it another way…

Homophobia: attacking people on the basis of their sexuality

Misogyny: attacking people on the basis of their gender

Racism: attacking people on the basis of their ethnicity

Saying that God is fictional : not like any of the above, except by a chain of dubious inference.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@armedmonkey

But they are bigots. Their bigotry is based on religion, and that shouldn’t just get a free pass.

In what way is it bigoted to claim that one specific god is a fictional character or that it/he/she/they don’t exist? Don’t most religious people claim that as well about the myriad other deities?

[armedmonkey]

@Mangetout

Someone opining that god is fictional, then walking away, is a non-problem.

We both know that that’s not all that was intended. If you were honest with yourself, you would know that what started this was a bigoted driveby. There was just no fucking reason for Czarcasm’s original post, and he does that shit all the time. He’ll snidely throw in a comment about his pet prejudice in threads where he knows he won’t get called on it. We should not give him a free pass for that just because you think it’s just a “small problem”.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@armedmonkey

We both know that that’s not all that was intended. If you were honest with yourself, you would know that what started this was a bigoted driveby. There was just no fucking reason for Czarcasm’s original post, and he does that shit all the time. He’ll snidely throw in a comment about his pet prejudice in threads where he knows he won’t get called on it. We should not give him a free pass for that just because you think it’s just a “small problem”.

If that specific poster has a history of particularly offensive behaviour then I can understand you prejudging the motives behind their comment.

However, will you admit at least that another…blemish free…poster could make that exact same comment, in that same thread without it meaning that they were a bigot?

If not, why not?

[armedmonkey]

@Novelty_Bobble

However, will you admit at least that another…blemish free…poster could make that exact same comment, in that same thread without it meaning that they were a bigot?

Absolutely. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out that God shows up in fiction all the time. Morgan Freeman’s even played him twice.

But that’s not really what’s happening here, and everybody knows that, even though some don’t want to admit it.

[Mangetout]

I think what Novelty Bobble was saying is that another poster could state “God is a fictional entity” and it would be less of a problem than this was.