Why Do Men Get Married?

[Surreal]

Why do men get married these days? What’s in it for them??

Years ago, it used to be the case that men HAD TO get married, because 1) Strong cultural and religious beliefs favoring marriage and 2) Most women would not have sex with a man UNTIL he married her.

But now, things have changed considerably. Most people don’t care if a couple just lives together without the benefit of marriage. Few people are extremely religious. Not that many people consider sex outside of marriage a sin, and almost everyone who is married was already having sex BEFORE they got hitched.

So what is the advantage for the men to marry? Everything they get out of it they HAD ALREADY! Do they WANT to have lose their option to get out of a relationship? Do they WANT to be bossed around?? Do they WANT to pay higher taxes???

[Honey]

Or....Why do women get married?

[Surreal]

It’s another good question, Honey.

But I asked about men specifically because the disadvantages for men are MUCH more obvious. Most women (not ALL) make less $$$$ than their husbands, so there is a financial incentive for them to marry. Also, since a woman’s value I society is related mostly to her looks- which deteriorate quickly – she gains a lot of security by getting married. If she’s single when she’s 40, not very many men will be interested in her. I think there are statistics that confirm this. So marriage is a good insurance policy for women.

[handy]

Cause they met someone 'special' said some lady in my sign class, married 27 years.

[storyteller0910]

I will try to answer this question, though judging by the tenor of your OP, I sincerely doubt I will convince you of much. Nonetheless, I am a man, 25 years of age, and I have been married for about one year. Here is why:

- I am in love with my wife. I wanted to make a public proclamation of same, and of my intention to continue doing same until one of us is no longer around.

- I like the *idea* of being married. I like using the phrase, "my wife." I know, it sounds a little juvenile, but there it is.

- I get covered under my wife's health benefits, which are significantly superior to mine.

- Because we are legally wed, my wife has the right to make important decisions involving medical care, etc, should I become unable to do so. Were we not legally wed, these decisions would probably fall upon my mother, a concept that frightens me more than I can say.

- I got to have a massive wedding, eat incredible food, see my beloved in a beautiful gown and get dressed up myself, and receive as much in gifts as I make in a year, after taxes.

- Buying a house as a legally married couple? Easier.

- I get another set of family members who, while imperfect, now perceive me as "family," with the rights and responsibilities thereof.

- It made my current relatives happy, because they are very Italian, and very traditional. By having a large, traditional wedding, I (in their minds) showed respect to my background, my God, and my family.

- It makes my wife happy to be married, which in turn makes me happy.

- It makes me happy to be married, which in turn makes my wife happy; see above re: the effect of this on me.

So, as you can see, everything I got out of getting married I did not have beforehand. To answer your three specific questions:

* Yes, I do want to lose my "option to get out of a relationship." I wanted to promise not to make an escape in return for her promise to do the same. We both get ironclad security out of that - I know that if Brad Pitt walks into my living room one day with a dozen roses for my wife, I won't be left alone. She made that promise, formally, to me, and I trust her to keep it.

* No, I don't want to be "bossed around." I'm not. What does that have to do with marriage?

* The higher taxes thing sucks, yes. It's not exactly fair, but all good things have a price.

- FCF

[Surreal]

Well, handy, you don't HAVE TO marry someone 'special'. You could just live together, hopefully have a good relationship, and if you find out that she's not 'special' 5 years down the road you can move on- without her taking half of your stuff!

[auntie em]

Originally posted by Surreal
It’s another good question, Honey.

But I asked about men specifically because the disadvantages for men are MUCH more obvious. Most women (not ALL) make less $$$$ than their husbands, so there is a financial incentive for them to marry. Also, since a woman’s value I society is related mostly to her looks- which deteriorate quickly – she gains a lot of security by getting married. If she’s single when she’s 40, not very many men will be interested in her. I think there are statistics that confirm this. So marriage is a good insurance policy for women.

Insurance policy? HUH???? Insurance against what, pray tell?

Most single women I know (including myself) own their own homes (granted, I live in Kansas, where real estate is cheap, but the single boys are still in crappy little apartments), pay their own bills, and build their own backyard fences (woops, I originally typed "backyard feces"...). Not to mention the fact that they feel free to form relationships (of any kind) based on mutual respect and affection, and not on financial security.

I'm not trying to sound defensive (or offensive), but just as ideas about sex before marriage are changing, so are ideas about what people can get out of a marriage. Sure, there are still a few gold-diggers out there (on both sides of the fence), but for the most part, that whole "women-in-the-workforce" thing really has done wonders for our self-sufficiency.

If you ask me, it's MEN who flounder when they're single for too long. In most, if not all, of the married (straight) couples I know, it's the wife who:

a) is in charge of the finances

b) makes the house a "home" as opposed to a lean-to with a La-Z-Boy and a TV tray

c) keeps the husband from making really idiotic mistakes (such as trying to do yardwork in his new Armani suit).

I'm telling you. You guys without us are like deer in headlights.

[storyteller0910]

Hey, auntie, I resent that!

*I* am in charge of our fin -

Oh, no, wait...

Well, *I* decorate our h -

No, I don't do that either...

Oh, well. I could really use a good deer in the headlights T-shirt.

- FCF

[misshannah]

married men live longer

"Men do not initiate divorce for one very simple reason," Maushart said. "They like being married. It's life-enhancing. Marriage increases men's wages, reduces substance abuse, drinking and other unhealthy behaviors. Married men live longer and have fewer mental-health problems."

For women, marriage is different.

"Becoming a wife not only lowers a woman's mental health, it reduces her leisure time and triples her unpaid domestic labor," Maushart said. It also increases the odds that she will be physically assaulted or murdered.

[auntie em]

Originally posted by storyteller0910


Oh, well. I could really use a good deer in the headlights T-shirt.

- FCF

Slip me your wife's email. I'll make an "anonymous" suggestion for your next birthday.

Seriously, I loved your (earlier) post. Very well said, and be sure to drop me an invite for your 50th anniversary party!

[auntie em]

Originally posted by hannahw
married men live longer

Very interesting!

So, then, back to Honey's question....

[Surreal]

Marriage does NOT make men live longer; men who are going to live longer are more likely to get married.

Do you see women marrying guys that weight 500 pounds? Do you see women marrying heroine addicts?? Do you see women marrying men who have severe diseases???

No! They prefer HEALTHY men, and healthy men live longer.

[Guinastasia]

Somebody sounds bit-ter!

[misshannah]

Originally posted by Surreal
Marriage does NOT make men live longer; men who are going to live longer are more likely to get married.

Do you see women marrying guys that weight 500 pounds? Do you see women marrying heroine addicts?? Do you see women marrying men who have severe diseases???

No! They prefer HEALTHY men, and healthy men live longer.

Surreal I have to disagree with you. Maybe my cite wasn't the most scientific, but it seemed pretty clear to me that the researcher was claiming that marriage was life-extending for men, not that healthier men are more likely to get married. And even if that's the case, how does that fit into your argument? Is that the answer to your question, marriage is a healthy choice for healthy men?

[Surreal]

storyteller0910- "Because we are legally wed, my wife has the right to make important decisions involving medical care, etc, should I become unable to do so."

You could have just drawn up a 'living will' for this. That way YOU make the decisions. Besides, you don't know for certain how your wife would react if you were in an accident became brain-dead.

[Bandanaman]

Hell. I just did it 'cos the dishes were starting to pile up in the sink.

[AndrewL]

Getting married saved us a few thousand dollars per year on taxes. And she's covered on my health insurance now.

[Venoma]

Originally posted by Surreal
[b]Marriage does NOT make men live longer; men who are going to live longer are more likely to get married.

Cite?

Your opinion is entirely vaild, but until you show some data to back it up, it's nothing but blather.

Myself, I am getting married because I want to be with my fiance, who lives in another country. He wants to marry me so that I can immigrate and be with him. We fully intend to spend the rest of our lives together, but if this is not possible, we both still have our 'options' to withdraw from the relationship. It's called a 'divorce'. If you're scared about her going for what you have, get a prenup.. yeesh.

[storyteller0910]

Um, sure, I could have. Because I got married, I don't have to. I don't have to pay a lawyer to do it. And no, I don't know for certain how my wife would react, but I have a pretty good idea. I trust her, you see, which means I don't mind if she has a certain degree over what happens if and when I become unable to make those decisions for myself. She knows what I want.

And, of course, that item was only one of a list of about 20 benefits. Was this the only one with which you could take issue?

Originally posted by Surreal
Marriage does NOT make men live longer; men who are going to live longer are more likely to get married.

Do you see women marrying guys that weight 500 pounds? Do you see women marrying heroine addicts?? Do you see women marrying men who have severe diseases???

No! They prefer HEALTHY men, and healthy men live longer.

I have a confession to make. My name is Frank, and I am a heroine addict. It started small, watching "Wonder Woman" on TV as a kid. But it got out of control, and now I watch "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" almost every day - sometimes twice a day.

Heroine addiction is a dark, dark path.

- FCF

[storyteller0910]

Just a quick note to say:

My defense of people who decide to marry should in no way suggest that I have any problem with the many people who choose to remain legally unwed. I absolutely believe that the decision to get married is an incredibly personal one, and I can understand perfectly if you decide it's not for you.

I don't really like the implication that the choice *I* made was a stupid one, though, which is why I responded as I did.

- FCF

[dragongirl]

My husband married me because he wanted to be married to me.

[stankow]

"Why do men get married?"
Because they fall in love. And all questions that involve the words "why" and "love" have the exact same answer.
"Why does she love a man who beats her?" Dunno.
"Why does he love a woman who manipulates him?" Dunno.
"Why are they still in love after fifty years, four children and the ravages of time?" Dunno.

Rational thought doesn't apply. For instance:

Do you see women marrying guys that weight 500 pounds? Do you see women marrying heroine addicts?? Do you see women marrying men who have severe diseases???

Yes, yes and yes. Hell, there are women who marry serial killers on death row. Love is strange and stupid and wonderful and meaningless and the only thing worth having. Why is love all these things?
Dunno.

[Lissla Lissar]

My fiance will starve if he doesn't marry me. McDonald's just isn't good for you long-term... I agree with auntie em. I know that I'll be doing the cooking, cleaning and decorating. I'm better at all of them. Thank you, storyteller for the point about trust. I was going to say something about it, but you beat me to it. Why is he marrying me?

1. Love- we want to spend the rest of our lives together.
2. Public declaration of love and faithfulness before friends and family. We are going to mean those vows that we're taking.
4. The opportunity to haul long-distince friends up to Canada and have a big party- it's hard to convince people to come from Arkansas to Canada during winter for any other reason
5. Security/trust- I trust him to do the right thing, even if I, say, become brain dead.
6. Sex- we're conservative Christians, and we're not going to have sex until we're married.
Not to disparage anyone who chooses not to marry their SO, but I'd really rather have to promise to stay with him- I think the act of vowing will help keep us together during the rough spots. I don't really want a way out, because I know I'll probably be tempted to use it, and so will he. A vow is more binding than feelings. My $.O2

[Dangerosa]

My husband married me because "wife" was easier to say than "shameless hussy I shack up with."

Pay higher taxes: Check. But were both Liberals, so we don't complain

Gets bossed around: I'm not really that type of wife. Nor was I that type of girlfriend.

Has less options to get out: Nope. He can still leave and file for divorce. Its a little messier now. But that has much more to do with the house and the kids than with the marriage.

For the record, I didn't want to get married. It was important to him, not to me.

Also, when we got married, I owned a house, he didn't. I made more money than he did. I'm still pretty good looking at 35, and few heterosexual men would turn down no-strings sex from me, but since I never really minded being single (nor do I have an overwhelming sex drive that sends me looking for no strings sex), I'm not sure I needed the "insurance" of marriage.

[EVO95]

I really didn't want to get married, I'd been dating Mrs. 95 for about 6 years, and things were going well. She kept asking (read: nagging) me, when we were gonna get married. So finally, I told her April 1st, thinking no sane woman would agree to her "big day" being April Fools Day. Guess I was wrong. I guess, since we have kids now, that the sense of stability created by being married is comforting for them.

[handy]

"Why Do Men Get Married?"

To give up sex.

[sailor]

>> Why Do Men Get Married?

How else could they beat their wives?

:&R::

[Finnie the Pooh]

I was asked, and I had nothing better to do for the rest of my life.

[Eutychus]

Marriage does not make men live longer.

It only seems that way.

[DAVEW0071]

Deciding to get married is not necessarily a decision made purely through intellect, such as choosing a career path or what car to buy.

When I realized I loved the woman who eventually became my wife, nothing else mattered. And, since I wanted to vow to devote my life to being with her, marriage seemed the obvious thing to do.

The OP's indication that a relationship other than marriage is easier to get out of indicates a flawed (to my mind) aspect of approaching marriage. Divorce has never been an option for me or my wife. Our marriage vows actually mean something to us, two decades later, and we've always approached it as an eternal partnership, not with one or the other of us coming out ahead in anything. So, when times have gotten tough, rather than bailing out, we've faced the tough times together and emerged stronger in our bond. That's what marriage is, ideally.

The advantage to being married is that you are married.

[Lissla Lissar]

Go, Dave! Your wife is very lucky.

[Guinastasia]

I'm still waiting for that mysterious Prince from either Russia or the Balkans to come knocking on my door...

[shrew]

Because their mothers eventually die.






_doh

[iampunha]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I'm still waiting for that mysterious Prince from either Russia or the Balkans to come knocking on my door...

::checks ancestry::

CRAP!

[Coil]

I am sorry I do not have the time to write a lengthy reply but take a look at this article by Steven Landsburg on "Why men pay to stay married".
http://slate.msn.com/?id=94243

[Johnny Angel]

DAVEW0071 wrote:

When I realized I loved the woman who eventually became my wife, nothing else mattered. And, since I wanted to vow to devote my life to being with her, marriage seemed the obvious thing to do.

The OP's indication that a relationship other than marriage is easier to get out of indicates a flawed (to my mind) aspect of approaching marriage. Divorce has never been an option for me or my wife. Our marriage vows actually mean something to us, two decades later, and we've always approached it as an eternal partnership, not with one or the other of us coming out ahead in anything. So, when times have gotten tough, rather than bailing out, we've faced the tough times together and emerged stronger in our bond. That's what marriage is, ideally.

Oh, brother. And me without a stack of flapjacks.

I married my wife because she said she'd take over all the paperwork.

[DAVEW0071]

If you're implying that my sentiments on love and marriage are too treacly for your tastes, all I can say is, it works for me and Mrs. Dave-Guy. YMMV, of course, but what I said only reflects the reality of my marriage.

Twenty years and still going strong.

[MovieMogul]

My wife and I talked about this once and we agreed that there was something so transitory about just living together (which we did for about a year). No matter how committed we might claim we were, there was still that easy-out about not taking that final step. With one bad argument or one real temptation (of which we've had neither thus far), I think we both knew that there would always be that option of just ending it instead of trying to work through it. Without being married, you can't help but consider it, and that's not something we ever really wanted. "Actions speak louder than words" my Dad always said and nothing could be more serious to me than to officially, legally proclaim that she is the one I intend to be with forever. Walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

So I pay more taxes--who cares? That's the only "down side" I can think of. Alas, I've never bothered investigating what an unmarried couple can do (re: loans, mortgages, etc.) as easily as a married couple, but I do know that being married means I don't have to worry about it. My wife is part of everything I do/own/decide, and vice versa. Although I have to consider her in everything I think about pursuing, there are few things I want to do that I don't have more fun with her there anyway. Also, if we weren't married, I know each of us would think twice about quitting a job, pursuing a dream, taking a risk in life because in the back of our minds would be that thought you never know; well, we do know. Insurance, bills, future medical concerns, we've got each other's backs.

And to be honest, I love wearing the ring and having everyone know, without saying a word, that there's someone more valuable than words in my life. The only thing it doesn't say is how lucky I am to have her there.

[Essured]

Most women (not ALL) make less $$$$ than their husbands, so there is a financial incentive for them to marry.

Cite, please.

I was under the impression that men and women who have similar experience, similar qualifications and similar amounts of time invested into their careers were paid almost equally. In fact, I think the amount a women is paid less than a man (all other things being equal) was at about 3-4%. Hardly a strong reason / incentive to marry.

May I also ask why you assume men who are married get bossed around ?

[Lizard]

Originally posted by auntie em

If you ask me, it's MEN who flounder when they're single for too long. In most, if not all, of the married (straight) couples I know, it's the wife who:

a) is in charge of the finances

b) makes the house a "home" as opposed to a lean-to with a La-Z-Boy and a TV tray

c) keeps the husband from making really idiotic mistakes (such as trying to do yardwork in his new Armani suit).

I'm telling you. You guys without us are like deer in headlights.

auntie em, your reply intrigued me, and made me indulge in a little introspection. I'm almost 26, a college graduate, intelligent, with above average maturity. I'm not ugly, mean, more slovenly than usual, or impolite. In short, I will be considered a decent catch by SOMEONE some day. However, even though some part of me would like a stable, long-tem relationship with a woman, I know it won't be happening soon.
The reasons for this are varied, and a little selfish. But they have to do with the very things you mentioned as ways men's wives take care of them. I was raised by a mother who had a very hard time letting me grow up. To be painfully blunt, I felt (fair or not) that she ran my life from birth until I moved out of the state at age 24.
The things you mention above struck me not as helpful ways a woman could influence my life, but as ways in which she would usurp my independence. I identify things like this as being akin to the unwanted control that my mother had over me for far too long, and I find the idea of living that way intolerable. Frankly, I don't WANT a woman to give me manners, clean up after me, help me dress right, or make my house a "home." I will run my OWN life, for better or for worse, and the only woman I will tolerate in it is one who lets me do that. As you can imagine, most women have their own ideas of what their role in a marriage would be, and it usually doesn't include leaving me as I am.
That's unfortunate, because I think I can objectively say I would be an at least decent husband and father. It's not any woman's fault that I equate marital compromise with losing my independence, but then again, I don't think I'm alone in this regard.

[cgrayce]

The serious answer is that it's a sexual boast. Like the huge antlers a male deer carries around. Look at me, I am so big and strong and virile that I can carry around a fine rack o' useless ivory without breaking a sweat. All the disadvantages of marriage, including the possibility of a lifelong parasite in the event of divorce, are advantages from the point of view of someone who wants to prove how courageous, daring, and powerful he is in the arena of sexual competition: ``Ha! I am not afraid, I laugh at alimony!'' etc.

To whom is he boasting? Both male and female primates have reason to be influenced by chest-beating. His mate for obvious reasons. Also, the advertisement can go to other females, because a good way to ensure fidelity and tractability in your mate is to be highly visible and attractive to her potential competitors. Males of his political party will feel their group social attractiveness (hence power) is enhanced, and males not of his political party will feel appropriately threatened.

[Cherry_Blossom_]

Cynical much? I used to be a member of the anti-matrimony crowd, viewing marriage as the subjugator of the masses. It was my opinion that women lose their identity and joie de vive at the end of the aisle. Then, the fevered heresy of youth subsided and I realized that marriage is not a one size fits all iron maiden. There are as many different ways to approach marriage as there are humans on this planet. No two marriages are exact replicas. Some are excited by the prospect of carrying out daily tasks in the other's presence. Some couples do nothing together but eat and the obvious marital perk. If you view accepting the nuptuals as the stereotypical Cleaver prison, there is no advantage for anyone. If, however, you make it your own personal manner of giving someone special a more permanent spot in your life, (tailored to your collective lifestyles) it can do nothing but enrich both lives with the mere experience of it.


(I think I'll toddle off to align my chakras and hum a mantra in the key of life. Hmmmmmmmm...)

[auntie em]

Originally posted by Goo

I was under the impression that men and women who have similar experience, similar qualifications and similar amounts of time invested into their careers were paid almost equally. In fact, I think the amount a women is paid less than a man (all other things being equal) was at about 3-4%. Hardly a strong reason / incentive to marry.

Actually, in support of that, I read somewhere (sorry, no cite, but I could look around if you're really interested) that the largest wage gap is not between women and men anymore...

...it's between women with kids, and women without kids.

Now, I realize that marriage does not necessarily equal kids, and there are certainly a lot of single moms out there...

...but it sort of puts that "American Dream" (the house/spouse/two kids and a dog routine) in a different light...

[auntie em]

Lizard, I hear you loud and clear! And as one of those women who does NOT tend to "mother" the men I date (in some of the ways we've both mentioned), I tend to expect a grown man to be... well... a grown man.

And perhaps I was generalizing a bit, but I can't help but wonder if shrew was right with her (tongue-in-cheek?) assessment of why men get married.

I mean, I've always considered myself a damn good girlfriend, by my own standards (in other words, I try to "Do Unto Others..."). I don't yell, boss, cling, snoop, or "henpeck" (whatever the hell that means). Yet I find myself getting dumped by men who seem to wish I'd been different....

One of my exes told me that, since I was a grad student when we dated, he'd expected me to force him to attend scholarly lectures and such.

Honey.

He HATED school, and barely made it through college (flunked out of one, in fact, and finished at another). In addition, he was constantly picking up the books and articles I had strewn around my apartment (various school-related stuff) and making fun of how pretentious and pedantic it all was. In addition, I DID take him to a poetry reading, and he was so bored he spent the whole time playing with my hand and my ear (which made me want to slap him).

So WHY would I drag him along to lectures on Postmodern Literature (or some other such thing) when, hell, even *I* get bored with that shit after awhile?

"Well," he said, "I might not have WANTED to go, but if you'd forced me to go, I would have, and it would have been good for me."

"I mean," he continued, "your partner is supposed to make you GROW."

Hmph! Last time I checked, he was--ahem--"growing" plenty because of me....

ANOTHER one of my exes actually lied to all of his friends and had them all convinced that I was branding him on the ass with a hot iron every time he stayed out too late. This I found out because his friends frequently apologized to ME for "keeping him out so late"... finally I asked one of them WHY he kept apologizing... he told me that once it got past 1 am, my boyfriend's backseat mantra became, "Auntie Em's going to kill me..." and he'd repeat it until they finally took his ass home. Then the next time he saw them, he'd make up a story about how pissed I'd been.

Wha....? Sure, perhaps if he'd stayed out ALL night (and I was expecting him home), I would have been worried, but if he was next to me (alive and uninjured) by the time I woke up in the morning (which he always was), Honey, I was a happy little clam.

Nonetheless, I can't help but wonder if he (and others) somehow got the impression that I didn't care about them because I failed to be "bossier".

Now, this may be something akin to brainychick's thread about being "too smart" (some posters there have posited that the problem lies elsewhere, and this could be the case with me as well). But sometimes I look at the way my (female) friends treat their SOs and I think "Holy Cow... is THAT what makes them stick around, treating them like 8-year-olds???"

If so, I'm not sure I can swing it.

[Surreal]

Goo- "Cite, please."

Take a look at the link Coil was nice enough to provide. It says-

"In the year following a divorce, women's living standards fall by 27 percent while men's living standards rise by 10 percent"

This is PROOF that marriage COSTS the average man $$$$, and that the average marriage PAYS the woman $$$$.

Now, the amount that it pays the woman depends mostly on her looks. Men who are very wealthy, since they are so sought after, get their pick of the women, so they pick the most attractive women. Since rich guys find the same things attractive as almost all other men, this means that poor guys get stuck with unattractive women.

[Venoma]

Surreal: did you manage to read the rest of the article? That doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by auntie em
But sometimes I look at the way my (female) friends treat their SOs and I think "Holy Cow... is THAT what makes them stick around, treating them like 8-year-olds???"

If so, I'm not sure I can swing it. [/b]

I'm starting to like you auntie em You sound like a person too smart for the world around you (I don't say that to be cheeky, either). I think the answer to your question above is YES! Unfortunately, men form their impressions of what a woman should be by looking at dear old Mom, who babies them for most of their lives. Women do this too; a lot of women want a man to be their "Daddy," so to speak. Change their car's oil, pay for all meals, drive them everywhere, move anything large or heavy, get things off high shelves, etc.
I think some aspects of these gender re-affirmations are a necessary part of a healthy relationship. Some of it is just a man being a man and a woman being a woman. Someone who is TOO independant can make the other person feel unneeded. If both parties are well and truly secure in themselves, then this problem doesn't arise. But the vast majority of the human populace is insecure.
And I have identified this as one of my barriers. I have been caught on the teeth of an odd paradox: on the one hand the woman I ultimately want for myself would be my emotional and intellectual equal. Someone who I could not outsmart, and who would not put me through manipulative little games like my mother did.
But I recognize that a certain amount of looseness and self-sacrifice is required in a relationship. Right now, I am so paranoid and insecure myself that any woman who would meet my standards would be too smart to get into a relationship with me.
I really knew what the guy you quoted meant when he said "your partner is supposed to make you GROW." I realized recently (it was a painful awakening, to be sure) that nobody can make me grow but me. To think otherwise is to refuse to take responsibility for your own life. If I am to get the relationship I want, I have to make myself into the type of person who can sustain such a relationship. (This isn't the same as saying I need to be "worthy" of it. Everyone deserves to be happy.)

I think the men you've dealt with ultimately want someone else to take some of the responsibility for their lives off their shoulders. Too bad they will probably find someone to oblige them. I guess by being smothering and overbearing my mom ultimately did me a favor: I won't let anyone take away my feeling of self-determination ever again. It may take awhile to learn how to do it right, but one way or another I will always take care of MYSELF on my own terms, and never ask someone else to do it for me.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by auntie em
But sometimes I look at the way my (female) friends treat their SOs and I think "Holy Cow... is THAT what makes them stick around, treating them like 8-year-olds???"

If so, I'm not sure I can swing it. [/b]

I'm starting to like you auntie em You sound like a person too smart for the world around you (I don't say that to be cheeky, either). I think the answer to your question above is YES! Unfortunately, men form their impressions of what a woman should be by looking at dear old Mom, who babies them for most of their lives. Women do this too; a lot of women want a man to be their "Daddy," so to speak. Change their car's oil, pay for all meals, drive them everywhere, move anything large or heavy, get things off high shelves, etc.
I think some aspects of these gender re-affirmations are a necessary part of a healthy relationship. Some of it is just a man being a man and a woman being a woman. Someone who is TOO independant can make the other person feel unneeded. If both parties are well and truly secure in themselves, then this problem doesn't arise. But the vast majority of the human populace is insecure.
And I have identified this as one of my barriers. I have been caught on the teeth of an odd paradox: on the one hand the woman I ultimately want for myself would be my emotional and intellectual equal. Someone who I could not outsmart, and who would not put me through manipulative little games like my mother did.
But I recognize that a certain amount of looseness and self-sacrifice is required in a relationship. Right now, I am so paranoid and insecure myself that any woman who would meet my standards would be too smart to get into a relationship with me.
I really knew what the guy you quoted meant when he said "your partner is supposed to make you GROW." I realized recently (it was a painful awakening, to be sure) that nobody can make me grow but me. To think otherwise is to refuse to take responsibility for your own life. If I am to get the relationship I want, I have to make myself into the type of person who can sustain such a relationship. (This isn't the same as saying I need to be "worthy" of it. Everyone deserves to be happy.)

I think the men you've dealt with ultimately want someone else to take some of the responsibility for their lives off their shoulders. Too bad they will probably find someone to oblige them. I guess by being smothering and overbearing my mom ultimately did me a favor: I won't let anyone take away my feeling of self-determination ever again. It may take awhile to learn how to do it right, but one way or another I will always take care of MYSELF on my own terms, and never ask someone else to do it for me.

[JThunder]

Why do mean get married?

The reasons are numerous and diverse. Sometimes they involve the business end of a shotgun.

[auntie em]

Originally posted by Lizard
Women do this too; a lot of women want a man to be their "Daddy," so to speak. Change their car's oil, pay for all meals, drive them everywhere, move anything large or heavy, get things off high shelves, etc.

Ahem. Are you saying that this is a problem???

I do TRY to avoid this kind of behavior myself, but I'm afraid that when it comes to dealing with bugs/animal carcasses/heavy objects and/or intruders, I am more than happy to play the "helpless girl". (I was indeed my daddy's Princess.) I do like to pay my own way, do the driving, and take my own car for oil changes, however (the latter because I have a little crush on my mechanic ). And I can parallel park like a pro.

And as to the "mothering" thing, I do like to pamper people, but that goes for friends and lovers alike, and that mainly extends to cooking and the giving of little impromptu (i.e. "So and So would love this... I think I'll get it for him/her") gifts. One disturbing trend I've noticed in myself, however, is that as I get older, I'm losing the patience to let people try things for themselves. If I don't think they're going to do it "right", I'll shove them aside and take over. (As a result, it's easy to get over on me by pretending not to know how to do something.)

And that's my mama coming out in me.

At any rate, it sounds to me like you are a very smart and introspective person as well, and would make quite a catch. And if it helps, my theory is that nobody is ever "ready" for a relationship. I mean, who feels 100% complete, emotionally secure, mentally/financially stable, stunningly gorgeous and pleasantly fragrant, 100% of the time?

I mean, hell, if Julia Roberts keeps landing dates...

So I think you just gotta get out there and do your thing. Figure it out as you go along.

And just so as not to completely hijack this thread, I have to say that I think marriage is a good idea for some people and a bad idea for some people, regardless of gender.

Y'know?