Could it be.... Loch Nessmoking gun?

[Beagle]

Or, did we plant it? (In intermediate range missiles and in barrels).

[MLS]

And this stuff, too?

This morning, the team tested a 20-gallon drum, and came to the conclusion that it tested positive for sarin, a nerve gas and tabun, another nerve gas.
A 55-gallon oil drum came up positive for mustard gas.

I don't think so.

[The Green Feather]

The story in the OP is an unconfirmed report from an un-named 'top official'. I think we need to wait for something a little more solid.

[Revtim]

Loch Ness?

MLS, I guess I don't understand what your point is. Do you think planting is unlikely because there's more than one thing, or what?

I'm not saying anything was planted, but if they wanted to couldn't they plant multiple things?

[Beagle]

"Loch Ness" It was a reference to the length of this debate. Stupid, to be sure. If I had it to do over again I'd just say, "Nerve gas in Iraqi missiles and drums: false alarm (again) or smoking gun?"

Planted?

In freshly captured Iraqi missiles? There is the issue of chain of custody. This applies in a court of law or a court of public opinion. Either there is evidence the US planted large amounts of proscribed agents--if, again, they've been found--or we are dealings with the speculations of irrational critics. Why irrational? Claiming, in advance, that any evidence is planted is an act of loud desperation.

I'm not surprised that those who invested so much credibility in arguing against Iraqi possession of WMD would want to question every story. Given some of the preliminary speculation on many such stories, I don't blame anyone for adopting a wait-and-see approach. However, this situation has many badges of authenticity that other stories did not have. Allegedly, found in a weapon, tested positive, near barrels of something...

Of course, a poppy seed bagel also makes you a junkie... That's a reference to scientific false positives. The "nerve gas" could be pesticide residue (or something).

[Diogenes the Cynic]

One can of sarin still would not constitute a threat to the US or jsutify an invasion. Even if we find a stockpile Nuclearly equipped ICBM's, the invasion is still illegal.

Busting into your neighbor's house and killing him is still not justified if you then search his house and find an assault rifle.

[Revtim]

Originally posted by Beagle

I'm not surprised that those who invested so much credibility in arguing against Iraqi possession of WMD would want to question every story.

I don't think many people are arguing that they are sure there are no WMDs; I thought the majority of anti-war people were of D the C's mind, that there wasn't enough evidence of WMDs to justify an invasion. That is not the same saying there are none.

[Beagle]

...that was quick....

Pesticide

[Squink]

Or yet another example of the pro-war camp crying Wolfowitz over every little pestcide dump in Iraq ? This is what, the tenth or eleventh such claim. Maybe it'll work out this time, maybe not.

[Beagle]

What I want to know is, how did this stuff get into missiles--media/military credibility-wise?

Are we to believe that the Iraqis have intermediate range missiles loaded with pesticides? Are they preparing for war with those termites that build the really big mounds?

[MLS]

Originally posted by Revtim
Loch Ness?

MLS, I guess I don't understand what your point is. Do you think planting is unlikely because there's more than one thing, or what?

I'm not saying anything was planted, but if they wanted to couldn't they plant multiple things?

I am sure it was not planted. From the reports I've read, there's a lot of it. And because there are LOADED missiles.

AFAIK, mustard gas is not generally used as a pesticide.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Maybe they were decoys. Maybe they were hoping the pesticide attacks would look like chemical attacks to coalition troops and force them to wear those chemical suits in 100% plus weather.

[MLS]

Originally posted by Beagle
...that was quick....

Pesticide

nerve gas

And don't forget the missiles. One does not ordinarily put pesticides in missiles.

[Mtgman]

One does not ordinarily put pesticides in missiles.

That would be dependent on one's definition of "pest".

Enjoy,
Steven

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Note Stinkpalm's pit thread on the subject. Given that a search in the Pit will find about half a dozen identical threads about similar incidents in the last three weeks, all of which have turned out to be not so much smoking guns as smoke and mirrors, I'll wait and see.

Missiles? Hard to say what's happening at this point, but it's possible that the missiles are being kept in an agricultural facility (I think that's what NPR reported, that they were kept in an agricultural warehouse on a truck, so that the truck could drive out of the warehouse, fire the missiles, and drive back into the warehouse before radar locks on). If that's the case, it's possible that the same tests that mistook pesticides for nerve gas elsewhere were picking up pesticide residue from the warehouse on the missile heads.

Wait and see. If they do indeed turn out to be WMD missiles, then the prowar folks can gloat over the fact that this illegal war, supported by deceitful, unethical means, will have a salubrious effect.

Daniel

[Sofa King]

So far, all the news sources I see are repeating that single NPR citation for the chemical-tipped missiles. Rumsfeld and his buddy are reticent to make any preliminary statements.

"I takes days to get samples of things" to the labs which definitively test for such things.

[Finagle]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
One can of sarin still would not constitute a threat to the US or jsutify an invasion.

Tell that to the Japanese:

http://www.sma.org/smj/97june3.htm

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/weapons/sarin.html



Five *thousand* people were affected by relatively impure Sarin poorly distributed.

[Beagle]

Am I mixing two different stories together?

One, I think, is the Third Infantry story, now confirmed to be pesticides. Two, the 101st Airborne missile story you cite, I now think, is still viable--in that it has not yet been disproven. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is all breaking news.

[rjung]

There are two stories being confused here -- the "pesticide" bit is from a suspected site found late last week, while the NPR report is from this morning.

Still, the continuance of folks to scream "smoking gun" at every little thing does get tedious after a while.

[Beagle]

"Every little thing," like medium range missiles?

I'm no warhead expert, but I'm thinking it is difficult to confuse a chemical warhead from a high explosive warhead if you know what to look for.

[Duck Duck Goose]

CNN.com is now running the following top-of-page screaming red "DEVELOPING STORY" banner:

Material found in Hindiyah, Iraq, tests positive for chemical-warfare agents in preliminary testing, Pentagon sources tell CNN. More tests being conducted. Details soon.

So the sum total of the news is, "Soon there will be news!!"

This is getting pathetic.

[rsa]

IE just crashed so I lost my post before I could submit, so here is an abbreviated version.

From a CNN interview with a 1 star general with the chemical unit investigating the sites. Look for a transcript later on CNNs website.

Suspected WMD at training camp: Almost certainly pesticides. Sick soldiers determined to have heat exhaustion and prickly heat -- no chemical exposure.

Suspected WMD at agricultural site: Intial tests inconclusive. Chemical testing vehicles brought in and currently they have positives for nerve agent and blister agent. Can not rule out pesticides at this time, although signature does not match pesticides that they have trained with. Additional testing needed. Suspect chemical not weaponized.

Nothing about any missiles with chemical warheads. This sounds like incorrect reporting possibly caused because rockets (not missiles) were found at the agricultural site.

[Monster104]

Nothing about any missiles with chemical warheads. This sounds like incorrect reporting possibly caused because rockets (not missiles) were found at the agricultural site.

Every report I've read said the agricultural site is 60 miles south of Baghdad, while the chemical rockets were found near Baghdad Internation Airport. Since when was BIA 60 miles south of Baghdad, or considered an agricultural site for that matter?

[Azael]

from Diogenes the "Cynic"
Even if we find a stockpile Nuclearly equipped ICBM's, the invasion is still illegal.

Remind me again why I wouldn't want Diogenes to have any input on our national security policy? Oh yeah.. that's why.

[elucidator]

Yeah, well, the guys from the People's Republic of Minnesota, what can you expect? You know, round here, they don't even let you carry a concealed weapon when you go drinking? No shit!

Down home, we know that when you get hit, you hit back and hit back hard! And if you can't get the guy what done it, grab somebody handy and whip his ass.

[Beagle]

It's rockets, short range unguided (Katuysha like), not missiles as was reported.
*Lifts arms to heaven* IT'S CALLED FACT CHECKING!!!

I would be ashamed to be a part of the major media right now. Seriously, how can you take pride in rushing the story so much, every time, over and over, that the facts ARE NEVER RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

Sorry, that was directed at the news business...

[MLS]

Oh, well, if it's only rockets, then, I guess it's o.k.
And of course, if they are unguided, then it's not as if they were going to be aimed at anything specific, just kind of fired in the general direction of, um, gee, who? And if they didn't land very close, oh, I guess it wouldn't make any difference, would it?

[Estilicon]

The "coalition of the bribed" are in the Saddama's capital and he hasn't used his WDM (if has them yet) this war was sold with the argument that: "... We can't wait a couple of weeks, it's dangerous". I don't know why but the expression caveat emptor comes to mind.

[Beagle]

It goes to media credibility, MLS. Try reading my last post again from the perspective of media criticism. I don't know how you read it as anything but media criticism. YMMV.

[elucidator]

Jeez, just look at those barrels? They are full of high tech super whoopity deadly nerve gas? Hell, maybe they're full of Jimmy Hoffa!

You guys just gotta climb down off this WMD thing. It started out with Fearless Misleader screaming about nuclear weapons that he was absitively posolutely sure Saddam was gonna have in a matter of weeks. That's what "WMD" meant then. Now its gonna be any lame ass WWI technology like fuckin' mustard gas!

Who do we think we're kidding?

Honest to Pete, I don't have an opinion. An Evil Old Bugger like Saddam might have nasty shit, or he might not. Either way, its because he's an EOB, not because of the warmth of his heart.

Just about nobody on this planet believes we attacked Saddam because we were afraid of him, most especially after a casualty rate that approaches 20 to 1, half of that from sheer fuck-ups.

The only up side, the cherry on this turd sundae, is that our soldiers are the best trained, intelligent, and, most important, humane soldiers. Bar none. They went where they didn't belong, and did what they shouldn't have been asked to do, and did it with honor. I am proud of them.

But I am not likely to ever forgive the men who put them there.

[SPOOFE]

Jeez, just look at those barrels? They are full of high tech super whoopity deadly nerve gas? Hell, maybe they're full of Jimmy Hoffa!

Or maybe they're full of the relevant content of Lucy's posts!!

Remember, children, the whole "proof" thing works both ways: While it is important for those screaming "Nerve gas!" to wait for proof, it is equally important for those screaming "Illegal invasion! Me no likey Bush! Scratch testicles!" to wait for counter-proof. One incoherent rant does not deserve another.

[elucidator]

Oh, my. Cut to the quick, and stuff. Cry myself to sleep with my banky.

[Squink]

Jeez, just look at those barrels? They are full of high tech super whoopity deadly nerve gas?

Several of the darn things had Open Bung Holes ! Only a madman would store Sarin or mustard gas outside, in hundred degree heat, in open containers; and if the troops had opened them for sampling, they sure as hell wouldn't let reporters anywhere near them while said deadly containers were still open !

[Squink]

Exceptin maybe Geraldo, of course

[elucidator]

Does he have an e-mail? We could tell him where it is.

[SuaSponte]

Beagle, what's the difference between missiles and rockets? Honest question - in my mind, the terms are interchangeable (though if I were to think about it, a "missile" is self-propelled unmanned airborne ordnance shaped like a penis and a "rocket" is a missile with a particular type of engine).

Sua

[rjung]

Originally posted by Squink
Several of the darn things had Open Bung Holes ! Only a madman would store Sarin or mustard gas outside, in hundred degree heat, in open containers; and if the troops had opened them for sampling, they sure as hell wouldn't let reporters anywhere near them while said deadly containers were still open !

Heck, why would Saddam Hussein store his Sooper-Secret Caches of Forbidden WMDs in rusty old barrels out in the open? You'd think he'd follow the Evil Villian conventions and at least have a hidden, high-tech vault for that sort of stuff...

[ElvisL1ves]

1992: We know Clinton is a creature of pure evil, therefore he has committed unspeakable crimes, and all we have to do is find the facts to support what we already know. (Years of fruitless searching later) He had a blowjob! That's it! Told ya so, ya stoopid lib'ruls! (happy dance) Ah, sweet vindication - we were right all along!

2002: We know Saddam is a creature of pure evil bent on destroying us, therefore he has the weapons to do so, and all we have to do is find the facts to support what we already know. (Unknown period of fruitless searching later, but not yet) There's a couple of barrels with some dried-up residue out in the desert! That's it! Told ya so, ya stoopid lib'ruls! (happy dance) Ah, sweet vindication - we were right all along!

Same psychology. Same "reasoning". Mainly the same people doing it. Some ignorance is simply impervious to the fight.

[kingpengvin]

Look at iot this way: on the bright side of this all of these suspected chemicals keep being shown to be false leads. That is very significant for one reason. It shows thwere is an effort to find these weapons and to report on their findings honetly.

Those who would believe the evidnece would be planted must see that this has not happened and those searching are prepared to be upfront and admit 1) they haven't found anything yet and 2) let us know when a report is mistaken or outright wrong!

Oh by the way Missiles have a longer range and guidence devices, rockets are like artillery you fire it straight at your target (Well actually in an arc) in a somewhat short range. Once fired all that guides it is wind, fuel weight and initial trajectory.

[RandySpears]

Remember, children, the whole "proof" thing works both ways: While it is important for those screaming "Nerve gas!" to wait for proof, it is equally important for those screaming "Illegal invasion! Me no likey Bush! Scratch testicles!" to wait for counter-proof. One incoherent rant does not deserve another.

I'm unsure about that whole testicle thingy. But not liking Bush and stating that this war is illegal both very much holds independent of whether WoMDs will be found or not.

[SuaSponte]

Thanks, king

Sua

[Revtim]

Originally posted by rjung
Heck, why would Saddam Hussein store his Sooper-Secret Caches of Forbidden WMDs in rusty old barrels out in the open? You'd think he'd follow the Evil Villian conventions and at least have a hidden, high-tech vault for that sort of stuff...

And guarded by sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Or barracudas.

Based on yesterday's trio of chemical weapons reports, I was wondering whether maybe the military sent out word: "Uh guys? Y'all are looking for WMDs, right? Big fat promotion for whoever finds the first WMDs in Iraq!" or something like that.

I don't trust George Bush farther than I can throw him, but I think his lackeys are too smart to plant evidence. Given the amount of scrutiny any evidence of WMDs will face, it'd be extremely risky to plant such evidence.

OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised, and I wouldn't blame the military brass, if they're really pushing the discovery of WMDs. And maybe yesterday they pushed the WMD issue hard enough that several people jumped the gun in reporting what they'd found.

This is, of course, a total WAG.

Daniel

[newcrasher]

Originally posted by Beagle
...that was quick....

Pesticide

We planted pesticide in Iraq?

[newcrasher]

Originally posted by elucidator

Just about nobody on this planet believes we attacked Saddam because we were afraid of him, most especially after a casualty rate that approaches 20 to 1, half of that from sheer fuck-ups.

If you are speaking of the dead Iraqi to dead Coalition ratio, I suspect it is QUITE higher than 20:1.

[newcrasher]

Originally posted by Squink
Several of the darn things had Open Bung Holes !open !

SIZE=1]tee hee...[/size]

[Beagle]

Originally posted by SuaSponte
Beagle, what's the difference between missiles and rockets? Honest question - in my mind, the terms are interchangeable (though if I were to think about it, a "missile" is self-propelled unmanned airborne ordnance shaped like a penis and a "rocket" is a missile with a particular type of engine).

Sua

Good question. Other than just the use of the two terms non-interchangably dependent on the system, I'm not that sure. For example: the (I think) 70mm "rockets" our helicopters shoot are never called missiles. The Hellfire "missile" is never called a rocket. Both are shot at tanks from helicopters. One is guided (the Hellfire). But, then it's a guided missile. Why can't it be a guided (or for that matter, why can't there be a "ballistic")rocket?



Just in terms of dictionary definitions, "rocket" seems more appropriate for both rockets and missiles--"missile" being anything thrown or projected through the air or space.

OTOH, you'll never hear "intercontinental ballistic rocket," or, "guided rocket."

The system in question, I think, the BM-21 is always called a "rocket" system.

[Mtgman]

To further confuse the issue, I'll note that vehicles which carry payloads into orbit or space are called "rockets" and they most definitely have long range AND guidance systems. Apollo 11 was a rocket, not a missile.

Enjoy,
Steven

[SuaSponte]

IOW, a "rocket" is a rocket because we call it a rocket, even if it's a missile, and a "missile" is a missile because we call it a missile, even if it's a rocket.

Glad we cleared that up.

Sua

[rsa]

Y'all may have seen this over in the pit thread, but I haven't seen it posted here.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/895392.asp?0cv=CB10

...a third report dealing with rockets was discounted by a top general.

“I’VE SEEN NOTHING in official reports that would corroborate that,” Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal told reporters at the Pentagon. He was referring to news reports Monday that Marines had found rockets, possibly packed with sarin and a mustard agent, at a warehouse outside Baghdad.