The Straight Dope

Go Back   Straight Dope Message Board > Main > Great Debates

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-06-2000, 04:20 PM
Soup Soup is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
I just read a sermon for children that brought up a point I never thought about: In the book of Genesis, God created light two days before He created the sun and moon. So, where did the light come from?


******************************
NOTE FROM MODERATOR: The OP and the next 47 posts are from the year 2000, revived in Post #48. If you want to respond, be aware that some of the posters here may no longer be around, or even have forgot that they posted to this thread (as I did.) -- CKDH

Last edited by C K Dexter Haven; 09-01-2013 at 07:28 AM.. Reason: Added "resurrection" note - CKDH
Reply With Quote
Advertisements  
  #2  
Old 02-06-2000, 04:33 PM
Guest
 
I believe it means that Jesus was the light of the world, and, well, radiated enough light for God to see what He was doing.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-06-2000, 04:36 PM
Diceman Diceman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
He had a flashlight. Silly.

------------------
--It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-06-2000, 04:36 PM
zev_steinhardt zev_steinhardt is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 6,857
Quote:
Originally posted by Soup:
I just read a sermon for children that brought up a point I never thought about: In the book of Genesis, God created light two days before He created the sun and moon. So, where did the light come from?
Actually it was three days.

Bottom line is... if we are dealing with an all-powerful God, so what is the difficulty? You could ask the same question concerning the creation of plants (third day) before the sun (fourth). If God is all powerful, then God can do what He wants to, even if it means creating light before the sun.

Zev Steinhardt
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-06-2000, 05:06 PM
AWB AWB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
The light before the Sun was the Big Bang.

------------------
Wrong thinking is punished, right thinking is just as swiftly rewarded. You'll find it an effective combination.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-06-2000, 05:37 PM
tbea925 tbea925 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Soup said:
In the book of Genesis, God created light two days before He created the sun and moon.

Well, technically, the moon does not emit light.

And, there are plants that don't need light (such as yeast.

There are manny sources of light other than the fusuion of hydrogen atoms. It could not have been a flashlight, though, because the Energizer Bunny wasn't created until the 5th day.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-06-2000, 05:37 PM
handy handy is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Pacific Grove, Calif
Posts: 17,493
There are more light sources than the sun.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-06-2000, 06:10 PM
Surgoshan Surgoshan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Just gotta laugh, I do, I do.

------------------
I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-06-2000, 06:53 PM
joemill joemill is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Quote:
"I believe it means that Jesus was the light of the world, and, well, radiated enough light for God to see what He was doing."

I sometimes think the same thing. One Creationist theory is that the light came from electrons falling into place around nuclei as God created the material (elements) to make the universe.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-06-2000, 06:58 PM
Soup Soup is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
AWB - You might be right. I know I read somewhere that scientists believe the Universe consisted of glowing gases long before the stars and planets formed.

Surgoshan - Care to share the joke?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-06-2000, 07:39 PM
Surgoshan Surgoshan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Every time I here a question even remotely dealing with religion I giggle. Especially when, as seems to be somewhat the case here, it's argumentative. Issues like that will probably never be resolved. Ever.

------------------
I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-06-2000, 07:50 PM
Soup Soup is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Well, it's not so much a case of RESOLVING the issue (unless one of the original authors of the Bible would care to check in). I just thought it was an interesting anomoly (sp?) that someone could shed some light on (pun intended).
If the religious aspect makes one uncomfortable, look at it from a secular angle. There's this science-fiction novel called "The Bible" in which the main character (God) creates a whole universe in a week. The odd thing is, he creates light before he creates any apparent source of the light. Is this a plot hole, or did the author do this to symbolize something? Or, did I just miss something?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-06-2000, 08:09 PM
pluto pluto is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
I have heard explanations that posit that the description in Genesis is from the point of view of someone on earth. In this view, the original light ("Fiat lux!") was indeed the sun, which lit the sky but was hidden by the cloud cover (the waters in the firmament). When the sun was "created" later on it was merely disclosed by the parting of the clouds. From an earth-dweller's viewpoint the light was there before the sun.

I'm not saying this is my viewpoint and I'm not willing to debate the issue. But here's one explanation which is more or less reasonable that meets the objection in the OP.

------------------
I'm a vegetarian once removed. I only eat meat from animals that are vegetarians.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-06-2000, 10:05 PM
bda bda is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
the god created light before he created the heavens thing . . an urban legend.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-07-2000, 01:18 AM
NanoByte NanoByte is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Soup:

Quote:
Or, did I just miss something?
Well, if you're the Primordial Soup, yes, I think you missed something. I wasn't around so I ain't got a clue.

I think the sun musta went out though, 'cause there ain't much light bein' shed here. More like hair.

Actually, what happend was that light created God. . .and then God got the story all mixed up before he told his biographer. The other theory is that God got flashy before the Big Bang, when light went the other direction in time.

Ray (Theories @ 5 ea. Not guaranteed. Lucy lets me use her booth.)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-07-2000, 08:32 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
Right Hand of the Master
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago north suburb
Posts: 16,057
Those who believe that every word of the Bible is literal truth pose answers such as some of the ones you've seen here: that the first light was divine radiance, or was the Big Bang, or the explosive light before the stars coalesced, of some thing. These folks have grand explanations to try to tie all the other bits of Genesis creation story to scientific explanations.

Those who believe that the Bible is a poetic expression, don't much care. The notion of God as creator is beautifully expressed in "God said, Let there be light! and there was light." There is a rhythm and pattern (far more so in the Hebrew original, but never mind) in the Genesis account, that creates mental and spiritual imagery that has Truth to it, even if not literal word-for-word truth.

Those who believe the Bible to be the work of human hands without any divine inspiration, of course, have no need for explanations, the ancient writers just didn't know enough about how the universe was created (or even how it worked, like assuming the moon to be a source of light) and the Genesis creation myth has no more validity than the Greek or Egyptian creation myths.

That's the overview in a nutshell.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-07-2000, 08:44 AM
melanietarrant melanietarrant is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
my pastor had an entire sermon on this about two years ago. but for the life of me i can't remember a word of it.
i'll find out and post...unless someone posts something that sounds familliar first


------------------
I'm pink therefore I'm Spam
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-07-2000, 11:30 AM
Nickrz Nickrz is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Wheaton IL USA
Posts: 2,034
Quote:
Every time I here a question even remotely dealing with religion I giggle. Especially when, as seems to be somewhat the case here, it's argumentative. Issues like that will probably never be resolved. Ever.
Which is why I don't giggle when I see such questions crop up in GQ. They are asked to inspire debate, not generate factual answers. That is, unless you believe the Bible to be a strictly factual document, which I do not.

CKDex and I have gone 'round and 'round discussing the differences between a question entailing "factual" answers concerning Biblical "history" (for example) and those generating pure speculation and personal opinion. This question falls under the latter heading and hence heads to Great Debates.

After all, even the mighty Cecil himself does not attempt to explain the nature of God.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-07-2000, 11:55 AM
Freedomx Freedomx is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
The light came from the OTHER sun of course.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-07-2000, 01:26 PM
WallyM7 WallyM7 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,012
Poly, you won't believe this, but as soon as I hit submit I thought to myself, "Watch Poly work in a photon post somehow."

Don't be alarmed, Poly. It was a fluke. Most of the time a haven't a clue what you'll say next. And I like it that way.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-07-2000, 01:34 PM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A better place to be
Posts: 26,718
Wouldja believe it was the Holy Spirit revealing that to you, Wally?

Didn't think so.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-08-2000, 12:24 AM
WallyM7 WallyM7 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,012
It's a source of never-ending amusement to hear people answer questions like this with, "God is all powerful. He can do whatever He wants."

These are the same people who also assign attributes and limitations to God in the next breath:

God loves everyone.
God will punish the guilty.
God will reward the innocent.
God is merciful.
God is just.
God hates evil.
God loves piety.
God... Oh, heck. Why bother to continue? I can fill a page with this stuff.

Amusing?

It is to laugh.

------------------
I don't have to do drugs to mess up my head. I went to Catholic school.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-08-2000, 12:55 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A better place to be
Posts: 26,718
Quote:
the god created light before he created the heavens thing . . an urban legend.
Ummm...that'd be an Ur-ban Legend!

Now, the Big Bang thing....that's intriguing. Best estimate of the temperature of the Big Bang: 6 billion degrees. (At that heat, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, and Celsius doesn't make a whole lot of difference, but I believe this is Celsius.)

Now, above a certain temperature, the flux of energy is so high that electrons and protons cannot continue to exist; the irradiation overloads them and they go up the Eightfold Path and poof. The one particle that can exist at that temperature: the photon.

Light.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-11-2000, 12:55 AM
ChrisCTP ChrisCTP is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Quote:
I believe it means that Jesus was the light of the world, and, well, radiated enough light for God to see what He was doing.
Pretty damn bright light, Jesus...y'know, considering he wasn't around until waaaaaay after that. Least that's what I remember from VBS.

------------------
"...being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage."
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-12-2000, 04:56 PM
plank plank is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
It's all a load of bollocks though, isn't it?

I don't mean to be dismissive, but the origins of most religions date back such a long time, that all we are left with is belief, faith, opinion. And that's mine.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-12-2000, 06:09 PM
jab1 jab1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Oh, goody. Darwin's still hungry....

From Genesis1, KJV:

Quote:
1: In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.
The Earth is part of the heavens. See any picture of Earth taken from spacecraft. This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many.

Quote:
2: And the Earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The ancient Hebrews, being desert nomads, saw the land as being stable, reliable, and slow to change. They saw the sea as chaotic and dangerous. Perhaps the writer selected waters to invoke a vision of chaos in the mind of the readers. And God was about to make order come out of chaos. But let's say he meant the seas: If the Sun had not yet been created, wouldn't those waters have been frozen solid?

Quote:
3: And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
If the light created by God was the light of Jesus, it wouldn't be sunlight, true. But if it's the light of Jesus, why is it called "Day" here? Why is the lack of light (darkness) called "Night"? It's obvious this passage was written by someone who did not know the Earth rotates and we get night (darkness) when we are on the side of the Earth opposite the Sun.

In 6,7 and 8 God divides waters from waters with the firmament of Heaven. Apparently, the writer thought there was water in the sky. (The source of rain?) And the word "firmament", according to Webster's, comes from a Latin word, firmare, which means "support." So the heavens support the Sun, Moon, planets and stars that come on the fourth day. Actually, they aren't supported by anything, they move through empty space, subject only to gravity and inertia.

Quote:
9: And God said, Let the waters under the Heavens be gathered together under one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas; and God saw that it was good.
Gee, I guess the writer DID mean the oceans when he wrote about waters earlier. And note that the Sun STILL has yet to be created. Those Seas would still be frozen solid. Gathering together in one place a lot of frozen water would be a miracle, all right.

tbea925 said that yeast does not require sunlight. Unfortuantely, God doesn't creat yeast in verses 11 & 12, He creates grass, herbs and fruit trees, which all do need sunlight.

[b]handy spake:
Quote:
There are more light sopurces than the sun.
Unfortunately, God creates ALL the heavenly lights on the same day in verses 14 - 18.

In verses 19 - 25, God creates all the animals. BTW, day five ends in verse 23. But more animals were created on day six (verses 24 & 25), before finally getting around to Man in verse 26, where God unexpectedly and inexplicable begins to refer to Himself in the plural.

I could go on, but that's enough for now. I have a question that's always annoyed me: "Why do so many Bible verses begin with the word 'and'?"

------------------
>< DARWIN >
____L___L__
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-14-2000, 01:01 PM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
Right Hand of the Master
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago north suburb
Posts: 16,057
Jab says: << "...the Heavens and the Earth." This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many. >>

Continuing in that vein: "My love is like a red, red rose" was obviously written by someone who thought that people and flowers are identical. But people are mammals, not identical to plants in any way imaginable: no leaves, no petals, no thorns, and few people are coloured red.

"What light through yonder window breaks" was obviously written by someone who thought that light had mass, and could break something fragile like a window.

"The best laid plans of mice and men.." was obviously written by someone who thought that mice could make plans, just like humans can.

C'mon. I think the opening lines of Genesis are a beautiful expression (poetical) of the origins of the world. Sure, Earth and Heavens are separated -- because the rest of the book is concerned with morality, which happens on Earth, not in the Heavens. The whole opening poetry is about separation -- earth from heaven, light from darkness, land from waters, water above from water below.


<< And the Earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. >>

jab sees this as written by people who lived in a desert and didn't know how to travel by ocean. But the word "deep" when used here does not mean "ocean" -- that's much later, English usage. The word "deep" in the Hebrew text has no equivalent -- it means depths, unfathomable, unimaginable, deepness. It is used in the Hebrew text only in the context of primordial chaos.

And I find this line a beautiful expression of an artist creating (whether sculture, poetry, music,...). The artist starts with the base material, unformed, unstructured, and the spirit of the artist moves gently, caressingly, like a parent hovering over a child, over the material.

This is not a science text, but a poem, and a brilliant poem with amazing depth of feeling in a few, sparse Hebrew words.

To answer your last question, jab, the original Hebrew text did not have punctuation, no periods to mark the end of sentences, no paragraphing to mark the ends of thoughts. The word "and" (Hebrew: vav) was therefore frequently placed at the beginning of a new thought, to indicate both a linkage with the prior sentence, and a separation.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-14-2000, 01:34 PM
andros andros is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chris, there's a theological belief that the Christ coexisted with his Papa from before the Creation. It's fairly popular in some fundamentalist theology, and IIRC is based on the idea that, well, Christ is God and has always existed, as well as a couple plural references in the Genesis creation story.

-andros-
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-14-2000, 01:43 PM
Guest
 
andros, I agree with that.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-14-2000, 08:54 PM
tracer tracer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Silicon Valley, Cal., USA
Posts: 15,563
pluto wrote:

Quote:
I have heard explanations that posit that the description in Genesis is from the point of view of someone on earth. In this view, the original light ("Fiat lux!") was indeed the sun, which lit the sky but was hidden by the cloud cover (the waters in the firmament). When the sun was "created" later on it was merely disclosed by the parting of the clouds. From an earth-dweller's viewpoint the light was there before the sun.
Problem is, there weren't any Earth-dwellers to witness it before Day Six.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-14-2000, 09:09 PM
jab1 jab1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
I actually don't have problems with Genesis 1 being poetry. My trouble is with people who take it literally, and the OP clearly takes it literally. The problems of creating light before the Sun, and liquid water without a Sun and flowering plants without a Sun show that you can't take it literally.

CK, you ought to know by now that I'm an atheist and I accept the Bible as a work of ancient literature and not a science text or even as a history book.

------------------
&gt;&lt; DARWIN &gt;
____L___L__
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-14-2000, 09:19 PM
Spiritus Mundi Spiritus Mundi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Quote:
You might be right. I know I read somewhere that scientists believe the Universe consisted of glowing gases long before the stars and planets formed.
So it was just God lighting his farts?

I'm sorry. I really am. I will flatulate myself now.

------------------

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-15-2000, 09:24 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
Right Hand of the Master
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago north suburb
Posts: 16,057
Jab, the problem is that there is no argument with those who take the text literally. Merely pointing out seeming contradictions will never convince them; they can swallow camels (like denying all of evolution), so they won't strain at gnats (like what light there was before the sun). They have answers to most of your points, some of those answers 1500 years old or more.

It's like trying to point out to ultra-conservatives who oppose abortion AND oppose gun control, that there is an internal inconsistency in their position. You won't ever convince someone to change his position just because it's internally inconsistent. To the contrary, it just makes them dig in their heels.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-15-2000, 10:44 AM
Liberal Liberal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Quote:
Pretty damn bright light, Jesus...y'know, considering he wasn't around until waaaaaay after that.
"Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:07 PM
jab1 jab1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
I bet you'd never get cmkeller to agree that the "light before the sun" was the light of Jesus.

------------------
&gt;&lt; DARWIN &gt;
____L___L__
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:35 PM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A better place to be
Posts: 26,718
Hmmm...I know in Jewish thought the Torah predates Creation. Would the Messiah also do so? If so, I suspect that CMK would agree to the syllogism "If Jesus be the Messiah, then he would predate the Creation." (Note the rare present subjunctive needed to make it sufficiently hypothetical to suit CMK's taste.)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:37 PM
Liberal Liberal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
God, I love the present subjunctive.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:43 PM
Gaudere Gaudere is offline
Moderator
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,111
I thought the Messiah was just a very holy man who will fulfill the prophesies (for Jews). He could hardly be around forever then, although the prophesy of him might have been.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:53 PM
AWB AWB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
My question: if God is omnipotent, why did he have to rest the 7th day?

------------------
Each of us, at some time in our lives, turns to someone - a father, a brother, a God - and asks, "Why am I here? What was I meant to be?"
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:56 PM
Liberal Liberal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
This might sound like a dumb question, and I'm sorry, but what Gaudere said got me thinking I might have made an errant assumption about Judaism. Do Jews believe that G-d is spirit? Or that He is biological? Or something else?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 02-15-2000, 03:58 PM
Guest
 
Quote:
if God is omnipotent, why did he have to rest the 7th day?
He just wanted to give us Saturday off. Then he sent down Jesus so we could have Sunday off too. I am eagerly awiting the new messiah whose holy day will be on Monday. Three day weekend! So can I run as a messiah with that as my platform? Admittedly, there's no threat of eternal hellfire or promise of eternal reward after death, but I think the fact that it is a here-and-now benefit is very compelling. Who's willing to start a petition for me?

[Using my mod powers to get my post to make more sense]


[Note: This message has been edited by Gaudere]
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-16-2000, 10:53 AM
garbod garbod is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
May be the book of Genesis is mainly picture language, trying to illustrate the piont that God created everything, and that the seventh day should be holy. After all who would of been there to see it all happening and record it?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-18-2000, 09:00 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
Right Hand of the Master
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago north suburb
Posts: 16,057
Libertarian -- of course, Jews believe that God is spirit. The Bible sometimes uses human terms to describe God ("a blast from his nostrils" splits the Red Sea, or the "hand of God" covers Moses, or people feast "at the feet of God.") However, to Jews, these are always taken as metaphors, expressing something in human terms that otherwise no human can comprehend.

Judaism also totally rejects the idea of "God becoming man" -- the basic break between Judaism and Christianity. I think that there are some Christians who interpret those metaphors ("hand of God," "feet of God" etc) as reference either to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit which has human form, but I could easily be mistaken on that.

Polycarp -- The Torah (earliest Biblical Judaism) says nothing about the Messiah. Whether he was created in the Beginning, whether he is human, almost nothing. Throughout history, beginning in the time of Isaiah, the notion of Messiah has been interpreted in terms of the most fervent hope of the age -- often, for a military leader who would rescue the Jews from oppression. And later in response to Christianity, for whom belief in a Messiah was so important. That help?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-18-2000, 09:12 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A better place to be
Posts: 26,718
CK...thanks. Sorry for juxtaposing Torah and Messiah; it sounds like it may have confused the issue.

My suggestion, rephrased as a question, would be this: "In orthodox Jewish thought, there were four(?) things other than God Himself which predate creation. One of them is the Torah. Is the Messiah one of the others?" If so, then the syllogism I constructed would be on target. A Jew could say, validly by logic and his faith, that "if Jesus = Messiah, then Jesus predates Creation" without asserting as a fact the Messiahship of Jesus.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-19-2000, 12:09 AM
YHVH YHVH is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
FIAT LUX!

Any other questions, wise guy?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-19-2000, 04:43 PM
jab1 jab1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
How do we speak your name?

------------------
&gt;&lt; DARWIN &gt;
____L___L__
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-25-2000, 03:39 PM
ERIC WILSON ERIC WILSON is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Quote:
Originally posted by Soup:
I just read a sermon for children that brought up a point I never thought about: In the book of Genesis, God created light two days before He created the sun and moon. So, where did the light come from?
Okay some of these replies to this were just getting stupid so I'll tell you what I always thought. It would take the light billions of years to reach earth from some of the most remote stars. The Bible does not account for those billions of years it would take. It seem to me that God created the light to appear it was coming from a star. The light was put in motion before its source. This would go right along with the young earth age theories as well as debunk the (in my personal opinion) the "speed of light is slowing down" theory.

Eric Wilson

------------------
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea. -Revelation 21:1
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-03-2000, 08:56 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 10,474
Uh, jab, you DON'T speak YHVH's name. It's against the rules.

A few points:
1. I'm told the traditional text sez "Elohim" created the heavens and the earth--that is, "the gods."
2. The text refers to a "greater light" & a "lesser light"--not necessarily our "sun" & "moon."
3. The line "The stars he created also," smacks of later interpolation. Anyway, he created them "also"--not necessarily at the same time.

Soo...
Most of the stars could have been preexistent. The lights created on "Day 4" may not have been our current sun and moon. Or other light sources could have existed PRIOR to "Day 4." There may have been multiple creators, or several beings working as agents of the same authority. Which reminds me of the Silmarillion....

AAGH! Tolkien really WAS translating ancient elvish documents!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-31-2013, 10:16 AM
40tribes 40tribes is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2013
Light is an essential substance

First of all, let me state my position - that of believing in a literal six day creation. If that turns you off, then please take no offense and feel free to read no further. I don't believe that a singular opinion on these issues is critical.

It is of the utmost importance to know that light was certainly created first... before the sun or any other object. Light is itself a wondrous substance with both particle and wave like qualities. When it bumps into an object, that object can be discerned and indeed express beauty depending on what light is absorbed and what is reflected. Light is a unique and separate creation from other physical matter. Were it not for the previous creation of light... photons that carry these properties, the creation of a burning ball of gas would be quite pointless.

Do you believe that when the Bible says "God said let there be light" that god "made" light? Or do you believe that God didn't make light but he just made the stuff that emits light (illogical, but if that's what you believe, it's OK!)?

If God "made" light then where did he put those photons? I would propose that when God "stretched" the heavens out he strung those photons out from the celestial embers that were designed for the their very beauty and majesty. Such an understanding make it unnecessary to resort to the problematic big bang theory, or Hawkins' limitless multiple universes. It also lets us read the "six days" as simply that.

Again, it's ok if you think otherwise! Blessings!
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-31-2013, 10:18 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
I Am the One Who Bans
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 78,236
Moderating

A note to anyone who wants to respond: the first 48 posts in this thread are from February and March 2000.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2013 Sun-Times Media, LLC.