Cecil a UFO debunker?

I just read Cecil’s column on the Roswell incident and it occurs to me that our Cecil has a closed mind on the possibility of Extra Terrestrials visiting our planet. If he’s the “worlds smartest human” then why does he seem to have such a narrow mind on the subject? At some point in human history I believe we’ll be thinking "How could we have ever thought that we were the only “advanced” beings in the universe with the capability of space travel?

As for the Roswell incident itself, it’s pretty clear that the government has been hiding something for a long time and not just top secret weather balloons. They’ve been lying about it for a long while too.

Official government Projects (that they actually acknowledge) such as Grudge, Sign, and Blue Book have studied the UFO phenomenon very closely. These projects represent an active 23 year study of UFO’s. They were damned well concerned about something and it wasn’t all swamp gas or reports from back-woods crazies’ either ladies and gentleman.

Anyway the Air Force seems to have taken this much more seriously than Cecil does by his answers in the columns. Why is that? Hey, I’m not picking on the world’s smartest human for nothing here; its one thing to be overly credulous but quite another to be overly skeptical.

Yeah I know, lack of concrete evidence. The problem is there’s lots of evidence; you just won’t find it on CNN. Not to mention there’s a pretty big effort to keep anything concrete on this subject out of the public domain. Of course they are covering this up. Oh well, I guess one will have to land in the middle of times square before people start taking this thing seriously. Even then…

North.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_052.html

[ul]
[li]If there are UFOs, show me an Alien Screwdriver. Or gum wrapper. You can’t? Everybody drops something…[/li][li]If they want to hide from us, why do such a lousy job? Lights all over the place, “crop circles”…we can build Stealth Aircraft…why aren’t they? IF they exist.[/li][li]If they want to contact us, why do such a lousy job? Just land in front of CNN.[/li][li]They US Government can’t keep Abu Dhabi secret–how could they keep a UFO secret?[/li][li]Throughout the history of this delusion, new elements, like “abductions”, are added on. Consistantly, these elements appear several years after TV or movie scripts feature similar images or behavior. Isn’t it more than merely likely that these ideas came from the shows?[/li][li]What possible gain could the Government realize from a cover-up? If terrorism can boost US Defense spending, think what Martians could do.[/li][li]The larger the conspiracy, the briefer it is, as a rule. Given the kind of numbers a massive UFO cover-up would require, the kitty would have gotten out of the bag years ago.[/li][li]Why do you think Aliens would be visiting? At all? If life is rare, there is little chance of anybody having enough high-tech to even go Interstellar, much less actually find us. If life is very common, why would anybody care about us? We haven’t even gone further than our Moon.[/li][/ul]

All in all, I’d say Cecil’s case is strong.

What’s your case? :dubious:

No, he just hasn’t seen much evidence of it.

Why is it so clear? I can’t see it, Cecil can’t see it, Bosda can’t see it…

Government agencies do dumb things too. How do you know it wasn’t all swamp gas or reports from backwood crazies?

Easy. Cecil is the world’s smartest human. The Air Force people aren’t.

Where will we find it then?

Where can I read more about this big effort?

I’m pretty sure those are all names for the same project, which was renamed at least twice during its run. FWIW, IIRC it did find a handful of “unexplained” sightings, but they are just that - unexplained - and if the government still thought the subject was worth their attention, why would they stop studying it?

Cecil has also closed his mind to a number of other theories:

  • that the earth is really flat, and the curvature nonsense is a gigantic hoax;
  • that the color red doesn’t really exist, but it part of huge conspiracy by the Communist Manifesto to dupe the world;
  • that the media is controlled by Jews (or, if you prefer, by Catholics, by liberals, or by guy named Arnie Zukoff who lives in the Bronx.)
  • that blacks are inherently inferior to whites;
  • that the theory of gravity (like the theory of evolution) is just a theory and it has not ever successfully been proved that things really fall down;

… and, oh, a host of others.

Basically, Cecil closes his mind to concepts that have no (unbiased) evidence in support, and no people endorsing them except the loonies.

Cecil defines loonies according to his own beliefs, so I guess it’s circular logic.

I’d say both you guys are pretty set in your non-beliefs on this subject which is perfectly fine…but here goes anyway…

Bosda says:

If there are UFOs, show me an Alien Screwdriver. Or gum wrapper. You can’t? Everybody drops something…

Who says aliens chew gum? Reports of encounters with ET’s don’t usually describe them as wearing toolbelts either (plus if they really do exist their technology likely would have made tools and key-chains redundant). Also, descriptions of aliens have been pretty consistant thoughout history especially the “Grey” alien type as being very economical in thier appearence. So nothing to drop, nothing to find.

*If they want to hide from us, why do such a lousy job? Lights all over the place, “crop circles”…we can build Stealth Aircraft…why aren’t they? IF they exist.
*

Maybe they are being as careful as they have to be. Maybe it’s a two pronged approach 1) To not directly interfere with human society as to inflict mass panic or a complete collapse of our religious and economic institutions as a dramatic appearance would undoubtably cause…and 2) To gradually accustomise the human race to their presence (see 1). As well “Stealth” technology does not mean invisible. It just means invisible to radar, not to the naked eye.

If they want to contact us, why do such a lousy job? Just land in front of CNN.

See above.

They US Government can’t keep Abu Dhabi secret–how could they keep a UFO secret?

They didn’t.

Throughout the history of this delusion, new elements, like “abductions”, are added on. Consistantly, these elements appear several years after TV or movie scripts feature similar images or behavior. Isn’t it more than merely likely that these ideas came from the shows?

Dig a little deeper and you’ll find reports of this “delusion” throughout history, long before the advant of filmed media (such as The Great Airship mystery of 1865). It’s up to you to put the pieces of the puzzle together, I’ve been trying to do that for a long time.

*What possible gain could the Government realize from a cover-up? If terrorism can boost US Defense spending, think what Martians could do.
*

The security of American airspace is sacrosanct. Think what would happen if it was known to be breached almost daily. The latest technology appears to be useless in preventing “something” from doing just that and all the money in the world is not going to change that.

The larger the conspiracy, the briefer it is, as a rule. Given the kind of numbers a massive UFO cover-up would require, the kitty would have gotten out of the bag years ago.

The cat’s already out of the bag it’s just that somebody dressed it in a clown outfit. Ridicule and disinformation is a very effective weapon.

*Why do you think Aliens would be visiting? At all? If life is rare, there is little chance of anybody having enough high-tech to even go Interstellar, much less actually find us. If life is very common, why would anybody care about us? We haven’t even gone further than our Moon.
*

Maybe to check up on what they’ve planted here, who knows? Ask yourself this: why do humans explore space or want to land on Mars? Who said life is rare?? Yes, we only went to the moon…because that’s as far as our technology will allow…but we WANT to go farther. If there are other advanced life forms out there, it’s not too big a stretch to think that they too are explorers. At least it’s not for me.

Price Guy:

No, he just hasn’t seen much evidence of it.

How hard has he looked?

Why is it so clear (that the government hid information about Roswell)? I can’t see it, Cecil can’t see it, Bosda can’t see it…

Because they DID hide something for a long time. 50 years to be exact. In June of 1947 the U.S. Air force issued an official press release stating that they had found a flying saucer. Reuters carried the story on the wire internationally. Later they said it was just an ordinary weather balloon and that was all there was to it. 50 years later they said it wasn’t just an ordinary weather balloon, it was actually a top-secret nuclear radiation detecting weather balloon complete with mannequins. The fact that they hid something is pretty clear. The fact that they lied about it is too. How clear does it have to be for you to see it?

Government agencies do dumb things too. How do you know it wasn’t all swamp gas or reports from back-wood crazies?

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that all reports of UFO’s come from swamp gas or backwoods crazies?
You say: “Government agencies do dumb things too”
So those studies were dumb? I cite 3 official government studies on UFO’s and you counter by saying that they were “dumb”? Right. Nice comeback.

Easy. Cecil is the world’s smartest human. The Air Force people aren’t.

Can’t argue with that I guess.

Where will we find it then?

Try some top secret bases. Maybe Area 51. Read the warning signs carefully though. By the way, read more than signs too. Try some books on Ufology to start. If you need some recommendations let me know. Remember one thing: One man’s evidence is another man’s conjecture (just ask Galileo).

Where can I read more about this big effort?

Try Amazon.com. I have a feeling that you’ll scoff at the books that are out there anyway, but maybe I’m wrong. Give it a shot (I’d go with the more credible researchers). Let me know how it works out.

North.

:wink:

Care to provide cites for all these assertions?

Well, I don’t think they were made to detect radiation, but they were top secret (at the time), and they were meant to detect nuclear explosions, but by sound & vibration.

See this link for an interesting article in Skeptical Inquirer about Project Mogul & the Roswell incident:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

In my mind, there is very little doubt that the Roswell “alien craft” was actually debris from what amounts to a weather balloon with some non-standard accessories.

Being open minded to the possibility that there may be alien beings with the capacity to travel through space doesn’t mean you have to believe that UFOs are space ships that intelligent beings travel around on from planet to planet. The sheer distance of the universe, the vastly varying ages of planets and the timescales life could have developed on them and the nature of the speed of light means that it’s quite possible for there have been billions of space-traveling alien races that never got anywhere near our rock… or if they did, it could have been long before life even existed here. Being open minded to possibilities is does not mean you have to fall hook, line and sinker for a series of whacky conspiracy theories.

It is not at all clear that the government has been hiding anything about Roswell. The crashed craft fits all the logical expectations for being a weather balloon. It’s only the people who can’t let go of their bizarre theories in the face of solid logic (or those who don’t bother to seek out the sources explaining the logic) who believe Roswell had anything to do with alien space travel.

What of the interview Major Jesse Marcel gave in 1979 for a documentary, in which he stated that the metal was thinner than tinfoil and yet could not be bent or broken?

I. Want. To. Believe.

(woo-woo)

There’s a hellava lot of maybes in your theories, North.

So there are two options. One can say that there is no hard evidence so I’m not going to believe till the hard evidence turns up.

Or one can decide that UFO’s are definitely alien in origin.

The latter is the close minded position. Stand in front of a mirror.

Link, please?

Here.

Sure, a few pounds of metal and sticks could have come from a weather balloon, but what kind of material could human beings possibly have had in 1947 that would be that light, that thin, and still stand up to that kind of abuse?

  • (or any other type of Earthly craft. Just so this point doesn’t get nitpicked. :wink: )

How hard have you looked for the evidence of a race of goatpeople living under Stonehenge?

I knew all this before (except a couple of points about the balloon, but never mind). Basically, your evidence that they hid something was one single press release? Without that press release, the case would have been cut-and-dry and totally uninteresting. One badly informed officer makes a poor decision, and suddenly the Air Force is hiding something.

No, I’m asking you. You said the reports weren’t from swamp gas or backwood crazies. I asked you how you know that.

No need to get snippy. The existence of three official government studies on UFO doesn’t mean that UFOs exist (in any other capacity than as a simple unidentified flying object, I mean). Did the studies conclude that aliens do visit Earth? Were they conducted in a good scientific manner? Where were the studies published?

Why don’t you just tell me what the signs say, instead? I’m very curious as to what a warning sign might say that would convince you that aliens are visiting Earth.

Give me some official reports, scientific studies, or the like.

I don’t understand what you mean here. Galileo had evidence.

Did you know that no human has ever walked on the Moon? It was all a hoax. It’s pretty clear that they’re making a big effort to cover it up. Just try amazon.com.

If you’re somewhat analogy-impaired: the existence of books claiming that there is a cover-up doesn’t mean that there is one. You can find books on any number of idiotic subjects with no connection to reality. Why don’t you just give us some evidence instead?

some people think those things. We can’t always fathom the individual human mind as terrible and beautiful as it can be. My main point here is that I believe that someday we will add - “We are alone in the universe”- to your list.

*Basically, Cecil closes his mind to concepts that have no (unbiased) evidence in support, and no people endorsing them except the loonies.
*

How do people find evidence without actually looking for it? Painting every person who has ever given serious thought to the UFO phenomenon as a “loony” is a disservice to a lot of credible researchers and serious people. It’s also an unbelievably broad stroke and is somewhat in league with some of the thinking in your list.

North

Kinda difficult to hide the capital of a foreign country.

books would be too expensive to mail sorry. :wink:

Flying Saucer Press release & Roswell information:
AP_Earliest_July8 , RoswellSummary5

A good resource for information here:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1682.htm

North

Princhester,
Where did I say that I had decided that UFO’s are definitely alien in origin? You’ve apparently decided that for me because I haven’t said that anywhere on this board.

And oh, There’s actually a third option: keep an open mind about it until the really hard, hard evidence shows up.

cheers,

North

Ps…I’m standing in front of a mirror…now what?