even sven, please give the poverty schtick a rest

[fruitbat]

Ok even sven, I have held my tongue too long. I didn't say anything until I saw that you felt free to go after a throwaway statement by another doper. Rather than hijack your (lame) thread, you get one of your own.

Please drop the poverty schtick it is embarassing, overdone and pathetic. Let me tell you about a few things that poor people don't do. Poor people do not:

Own Ipods
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...386#post5533386

Go to India for three months without being paid for it
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...ght=india+sven

Subscribe to Netflix

Choose to live in one of the most expensive areas in the country

Poor people take the opportunity to go to college as a gift, they get a degree in a field that is in demand and they move, fight and scratch to get the career they want. You apparently spent some time in school, most likely studying philosophy, and feel that the job fairy has failed to make a house call. All this would not be worth a pitting if you didn't whine about it constantly. I can link to literally a hundred posts, and if I had Ilsa Lund's talent for coding I would, of you lamenting your fate. Two recent posts will have to suffice:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...732#post5479732

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...409#post5521409

As a guy who has been poor, and worked damn hard to remedy the situation, I think you forfeited your schtick when you traipsed across India for three months. I would dearly love to do that, but I have never been financially secure enough to even consider it.

Notice there is no profanity, I don't think you are a lousy person. You just need to realize how silly this all sounds. You need to realize how this is percieved by other people here with more life experience. You are poor in some ways, but most of it is engineered by you. If you don't have the job you want, you would be better served by spending the thousands of dollars it costs to go to India, and establishing yourself somewhere where jobs are plentiful. Please, even for the next 100 posts, give it a rest.

[UrbanChic]

It's all I can do not to ask others in threads in which she's posted if they, too, hear tiny violins playing...

[Munch]

Your links don't work. Just a head's up.

[fruitbat]

Ugghh. Mods, could you fix my execrable coding.

[yosemite]

I do recall her explaining that she actually saved money when she went to India (the cost of living there was so low that it off-balanced the plane ticket). As for the rest of it, I haven't been following her rants too closely, so I can't comment too much.

However, I question your comments about her degree (I believe it was in film). I don't think there's necessarily anything so terrible about studying a subject that you have a passion about and have some talent for. (Pardon the awkward grammar there.) I assume that she felt that way about filmmaking, and if she did, I can't begrudge her getting an education in that area.

I certainly would have done better for myself financially if I had taken after many people I know and stuffed my passion for art away somewhere and had studied, I don't know, business, or something. But I cannot, for a second, regret the art classes, the teachers, the wonderful things I learned—the things that fed my soul—and if I had to do it all over again, I'd do it the same way. If I had forsaken my art education, I'm sure I'd be either very bitter or very sad (or a combination of the two) and that would not do at all.

So, no, I can't begrudge sven studying film—if she feels the same way about film that I do about art.

[fruitbat]

Yosemite, I actually agree with you. I studied something I loved. I accepted that as part of that price was temporary poverty and difficulty finding a job. As a live and let live type of guy, I am pitting the whining more than the decisions.

[yBeayf]

Well, you know, India has a thriving film industry. Perhaps she should look at moving long-term to India and getting a job helping to make films in Bollywood. As she has stated, the cost of living is much lower in India, a whole bunch of people over there speak English, and I'm sure it's much easier to get a job in the film industry in Bombay than it is in Hollywood.

[gobear]

You apparently spent some time in school, most likely studying philosophy, and feel that the job fairy has failed to make a house call.

Her degree is in film. But don't knock the liberal arts. Being a philosophy major is fine is you channel the skills one has learned, like writing and research, into better-paying lines of employment. College isn't vo-tech--one doesn't go to learn a trade, but to learn how to learn.

Even Sven been given oodles of advice on finding more rewarding work, but she ignores every bit of help she's been offered. Heck, I even researched temp agencies in Santa Cruz for her to no avail. Working at a Motel 6 might not be very remunerative, but perhaps the soul-crushing pressure of trying to live on the minimum wage will ignite a fire in her heart to better her circumstances.

I've done the desk clerk/ waiting tables thing, but I did it in Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Death Valley, and Grand Canyon national parks during college and for a couple of years after to finance my hiking and rock climbing jones. I've also been to India, as well as to a slew of other countries, but I did it by taking vacations between English teaching gigs in Asia.

She doesn't have to live a life of grinding poverty, but until she learns that she has to take control of her destiny and go out and actively grab the opportunities she wants, she's going to continue to be a victim.

If she wants to work in film, she ought to go to LA. She can get a day job while she networks with working professionals to get the contacts she needs to find film work. Even it's just being the craft services girl, any job in the industry can be a step up.

[Frank]

The only link fixable is the India one. The others don't contain all of the thread number.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by yosemite

So, no, I can't begrudge sven studying film—if she feels the same way about film that I do about art.

I don't begrudge people who pursue their passion; but it can be a real drag to listen to someone complain about it all the time. My brother is a starving musician. The rare times we hear from him, all he talks about is him, him, him. How he nearly died of poverty, how he can barely make ends meet. It's not like he couldn't do something more economically beneficial, but he loves the art. Okay!Then quit the whining already! Or move to where people listen to jazz.

[World Eater]

Originally Posted by Munch

Your links don't work. Just a head's up.

Can't afford a working link eh?

[Evil Captor]

Really, even sven, never complain about anything on the SDMB board. If you haven't noticed already, it's Blame The Victim Central around here.

[Omega Glory]

Here's an ipod link

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...od#post5397122

As for the major, I can understand choosing love over money, because I did the same thing. What ever decision you make, you must accept the consequences. I'm sure even sven knew (or should have known) that she probably wouldn't make loads of money with her degree.

[gobear]

Originally Posted by Evil Captor

Really, even sven, never complain about anything on the SDMB board. If you haven't noticed already, it's Blame The Victim Central around here.

Nonsense, one can complain here about anything. The catch is that if you're complaining about a problem of your own making, then you can't expect a pity party without the question of personal responsibility being raised.

[Abbie Carmichael]

Sven's a GIRL?

[Metacom]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

Okay!Then quit the whining already! Or move to where people listen to jazz.

How much does a plane ticket to New York in 1946 cost?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by yosemite

I do recall her explaining that she actually saved money when she went to India (the cost of living there was so low that it off-balanced the plane ticket).

I saw her original post to that effect and bit my tongue. But I have to point out the twisted logic... She saved money relative to NOT WORKING in the US. It's also possible to live much more cheaply in the US or even in CA for that matter if you don't choose to live in such an expensive area as Santa Cruz. I just don't buy the "I saved money by spending 3 months in Inida" line, and I think it's indicative of a way of thinking in which working at a job is considered an inconvenience.

[BrotherCadfael]

Originally Posted by yBeayf

Well, you know, India has a thriving film industry. Perhaps she should look at moving long-term to India and getting a job helping to make films in Bollywood. As she has stated, the cost of living is much lower in India, a whole bunch of people over there speak English, and I'm sure it's much easier to get a job in the film industry in Bombay than it is in Hollywood.

Gonzo: "I wanna go to Bombay, India, break into the movies, and become a big star!"

Kermit: "You don't become a big star by going to Bombay, you go to Hollywood!"

Gonzo: "Sure, if you want to do it the EASY way!"

Fozzie (sotto voce to Kermit): "We picked up a WIERDO...."

[Helen's Eidolon]

Just for the heck of it, some background threads, with no ill-will on my part:

even sven quits a job
even sven is depressed
even sven is unhappy about her prospects after graduating
even sven has a lot of life experience
even sven quits another job

Beyond that, I'm almost sure I'm missing a pitting almost identical to this one and several threads about how to eat on an extreme budget, which even sven is apparently an expert at, being often close to starving.

Which is all to say that this has a background. I don't think this is generic "blaming the victim", I think this issue specifically has been brewing for a while.

[matt_mcl]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Poor people do not:

Own Ipods

Or ever receive anything as gifts, apparently.

[Evil Captor]

Originally Posted by gobear

Nonsense, one can complain here about anything. The catch is that if you're complaining about a problem of your own making, then you can't expect a pity party without the question of personal responsibility being raised.

I'm sorry, gobear, but it has been Noted and Discussed by myself and others via email and in IRL that it is sheer folly to complain about anything on the SDMB and expect a sympathetic response, unless you're complaining about some political or cultural thing that gets people on your side because of their political/cultural sympathies. Certainly most personal complaints rapidly evokes a huge finger-pointing response toward the complainer.

[friedo]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Own Ipods
Go to India for three months without being paid for it
Subscribe to Netflix
Choose to live in one of the most expensive areas in the country

You forgot:

Have internet connections, and the time to use them to bitch.

[fessie]

Originally Posted by Evil Captor

I'm sorry, gobear, but it has been Noted and Discussed by myself and others via email and in IRL that it is sheer folly to complain about anything on the SDMB and expect a sympathetic response, unless you're complaining about some political or cultural thing that gets people on your side because of their political/cultural sympathies. Certainly most personal complaints rapidly evokes a huge finger-pointing response toward the complainer.

mmmm...sorta. Empathy is, of course, somewhat dependent on someone else having had the same experience.

OTOH, I think sometimes we cut people too much slack. The complainer IS responsible for at least their participation in almost every situation. And who else is responsible for and capable of fixing it if not them?

I seem to remember back in my philo days that it wasn't really possible to draw a distinction between the knower and the known.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Ugghh. Mods, could you fix my execrable coding.

[hijack]
FTR, I believe what you did was post the links, hit "preview", C&Ped that into Word (or something else to spellcheck), and C&Ped that back into the browser. Correct? That just destroys the links, because the browser will automatically parse them into a managable length. Next time, start in Word (or whatever WP program you use), and then C&P it into the browser (if you're that adament about using a spellchecker).
[/hijack]

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by LaurAnge

Just for the heck of it, some background threads, with no ill-will on my part:

even sven quits a job
even sven is depressed
even sven is unhappy about her prospects after graduating
even sven has a lot of life experience
even sven quits another job

C'mon, the life experience OP alone was highly memorable, including the "I've never been to me" sequence:

"I grew up in the ghetto. I've seen people get stabbed. I've lost friends to drugs. I saw my freaking dad become a drug addict. I've gone hungry. I've helped sixteen year olds get through post-abortion cramps. I've lived without electricity until the next paycheck. I've traveled on my own to at least ten different countries. I have plenty of sex with various people, places and things that I'll never tell anyone."

I don't think we ever found out what places and things even sven had "plenty of sex" with. Hoover Dam? An artichoke? India??

[alice_in_wonderland]

Perhaps my lack of advanced math training is catching up with me, but I cannot, for the life of me, figure how lolligaging around India for 3 months results in more income and $$ than working in the US for the same amount of time.

Regardless, a trip to India is a luxury that most people will never get to enjoy. Having that experience, and then bitching about how poor you are makes my gag reflex kick in.

Any other person would have seen the living conditions in India, got some perspective, returned to the USA and thanked their lucky stars for the luxury they enjoy every day. Barf.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

even sven quits another job


Fixed link

[Neurotik]

Originally Posted by Evil Captor

Certainly most personal complaints rapidly evokes a huge finger-pointing response toward the complainer.

Ridiculous. Sometimes it happens, but most of the time it doesn't. There are threads all over the place here bitching about crappy customers and people ring in with their own stories. There are threads dealing with a crappy thing that the SO does and people either give sympathy or chime in with their own stories of crappy things their SO did. People bitch about crappy relatives during the holidays with nary a word.

Even sven is being Pitted right now because she makes a reference to her crushing poverty at every opportunity, but has refused any and all help at helping to get her a decent job. She's being pitted because she wants to have her cake and eat it, too.

[gobear]

I'd like for this not to be a Pitting as much as an Encouragement to Even Sven to seize control of her life and to stop being a victim of the universe's tendency to randomness. Yes, being poor blows, but being broke in your early 20s can teach you self-reliance, thrift, and adaptability to unpleasant circumstances. I believe Even Sven will eventually rise up above adversity, but like Dorothy, she has to learn that she had strength inside her all along.

[lezlers]

Man, I think I got a little too excited when I saw this thread.

even sven and Incubus are currently neck and neck for the coveted SDMB "Whinest Bitch On The Boards" award.

It wouldn't be that bad if they weren't bitching about the same damn things over and over again and consistently ignoring the advice that's given to them, then coming back again a week later to bitch some more about the same damn things.

It's kind of like having a pounding headache, refusing to take anything for it, and proceeding to whine and complain all fucking day long about it to anyone who'll listen about your horrible headache. Either take some goddamn Advil or shut the fuck up!

[Merijeek]

Well, whatever happens in the thread, I've got to say that "the job fairy has failed to make a house call" has got to be my new favorite phrase.

Thanks for the laugh.

-Joe

[fessie]

Shoot, that crazy rich guy job would've gotten a LOT of sympathy from me. Most of the jobs I had were like that in at least some respects (most of them were temp assignments, so that made it survivable). Employers do expect you to read their minds, and they don't give you the tools you need to achieve their goals. It's sort of the opposite of school, in fact; nobody's set it up to allow you to succeed, much less thrive. And that's kind of mind-boggling. My Hubby is having a devil of a time now, but in school he was one of the golden boys - HS valedictorian, summa cum laude BS, Ph.D. via a prestigious scholarship. And right now he's lost. He can't figure out the game. Perhaps that's sven's problem as well?

[F. U. Shakespeare]

I have a lot of respect for people who follow their passion, but a lot of that respect is due to the less financially-secure life it entails.

My passion has always been music, but I decided to compromise and become an engineer. I've kept doing music for thirty years now. If you've got passion, you can do both. It requires compromises, but you can't escape compromise whatever course in life you choose.

A friend of mine who I perform with is doing it full-time. It's a rough life, and I wouldn't trade places with him. And he's at least as accomplished as I am. But I've never heard him complain that the world owes him gigs.

[Lemur866]

I think the basis of the problem is that Sven has decided that "poor" is a quality that one either has or doesn't have. If you are "poor" you have money problems, get thrown out of apartments, can't find work, etc.

But this is nonsense. All you have to do is get a better job. Or move to a cheaper place. Or find roomates. Or whatever. Poor is not an identity. But sven has decided that she's poor, so all the proposed remedies won't work for her...she's poor! And that will never change somehow. And it's all mixed up with some silly class solidarity issues she's got, and her depression, and on and on.

I lived my whole twenties working part-time jobs and making next to no money because it gave me the free time to do things I wanted to do. Sometimes it sucked that I didn't have a car, or couldn't go see a movie, or had to go to the library if I wanted to use a computer. But deep down I knew it was a choice on my part. Sven won't accept that her choices are choices. She thinks that poorness was imposed on her, and there's nothing she can do about it. Well, if you don't speak english, or couldn't graduate from high-school, or can't work legally here, or are a minor, or are physically disabled, or have severe mental problems, then it is imposed on you and there isn't much you can do about it. As far as I can see none of these are true in Sven's case.

[fessie]

Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.

- Richard Bach

[jlzania]

I have no ill will towards even sven either.
Don't know enough about her to feel any animosity one way or the other.

However, I have noticed that every message board, no matter how large or small, seems to have a poster or two that share the same characteristics.
If they start a thread, it is usually only to complain about the same issues over and over again.
Doesn't really matter what advice you offer them because they're not ready or willing to make the changes necessary to improve their lives.
They're not so much looking for help as a shoulder to cry on while someone mutters "Poor dear, poor dear.".

If they post in someone else's thread, they normally manage to inject a woeful addendum that incorporates the aforementioned complaint.
I call them the Agony Aunts because nothing really positive happens to them that outweighs the negative.
Personally, I think it stems from a twofold problem: 1) they tend to be rather self-absorbed and 2) they also tend to have a strong sense of entitlement.
However, in no way are their choices ever responsible-it's always bad luck or a system that's rigged against them.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Funny this thread just popped up...I mentioned the situation in Incubus' concurrent Pit thread. The point I made there bears repeating here, I think: namely that even a person with a BFA or a BA in philosophy ought to be able to find something more livable, although adjustments might need to be made. Could she earn as much as a BSEE or an MBA? Of course not. But could she do better than minimum wage? I think so, if she really wanted to.

[fessie]

Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.

- Richard Bach

[Boldface Type]

Originally Posted by fessie

Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.

- Richard Bach

Argue for them twice, and get the third limitation totally free!

[hajario]

This is about the third pitting of even sven over the last couple of years. It will probably be about the third time that she will respond by promising no more "poor me" threads. I hope that it will actually take this time.

Haj

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by gobear

I'd like for this not to be a Pitting as much as an Encouragement....

Too late for that, i'm afraid.

This is one of the most sanctimonious threads i've had the displeasure of reading in quite a while.

[CrazyCatLady]

Oh, yeah, she could probably do better than minimum wage. Even working at places like McDonald's there's room for advancement and pay raises, unlike her current gig. Shit, she could get a job in a vet clinic and do better than she's doing now. She'd have to start in the kennels making minimum wage, but there's generally the opportunity to work your way up if you're hardworking and willing to learn, and as you climb the ladder the money gets better. It's not great money, but it's certainly enough to keep one healthy adult out of grinding poverty.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by gobear

I'd like for this not to be a Pitting as much as an Encouragement to Even Sven to seize control of her life and to stop being a victim of the universe's tendency to randomness. <snip>

I think it bears pointing out here that rather than saying "being a victim," I would say "perceiving herself as a victim" (not to pick on you, gobear - I think you've made excellent points in this thread).

[Incubus]

What both even sven and I face are a balance between acceptable living conditions and personal choices. Sometimes we regret our choices, sometimes our acceptable standard of living changes. Sometimes we have doubt about whether or not we made the right call.

Right now I am still going to school. I am almost finished, so it is not practical to make some radical change right now, but rather, to wait just a little bit longer. However, this does not mean I am 100% satisfied with things. My recent pitting on life reflected my own personal frustration in feeling like I was pulled both ways- on one hand, doing the most common-sense stay-the-course attitude I have been maintaining, or the dynamic put-my-money-where-my-mouth is that some posters, such as Lezlers suggested.

I used to have a problem with even sven's posts as well. But I wasn't a moron about it either- what did I know about poverty when I still live with my mom? Since I really wasn't one to criticize, I kept my mouth shut. Right now her situation is very similar to several of my friend's roomates. Perhaps she does need a little bit of a kick in the butt to get her to be ambitious outside of dead-end jobs and become agressive in her search for a fulfilling and practical career. Another reason I held back is because I could, quite possibly, be in her situation a year from now if things do not go well for me on my own.

[andros]

Originally Posted by mhendo

This is one of the most sanctimonious threads i've had the displeasure of reading in quite a while.

How so? I'm not seeing sanctimonious here.

[catsix]

Neurotik said:
Ridiculous. Sometimes it happens, but most of the time it doesn't. There are threads all over the place here bitching about crappy customers and people ring in with their own stories. There are threads dealing with a crappy thing that the SO does and people either give sympathy or chime in with their own stories of crappy things their SO did. People bitch about crappy relatives during the holidays with nary a word.

Yeah, people don't jump all over me when I make posts about CtAC aka Happy McPeeHands. Then again, I don't make every fourth post a diatribe against CtAC McPeeHands.

[alice_in_wonderland]

I wonder how Sven decided to spend her $20,000.

[passengerpigeon]

Fuck all y'all.

We're moving out of Santa Cruz in January. We had planned to move in fall, but Sven got offered a big motel job during January, so we pushed it back to February. Now the job has changed to December, so we're leaving in January. We recognize that Santa Cruz is a stupid place to live, but we did all go to school here, and if we hadn't been lagging around after we got out, we'd never have met each other. Mostly I think that it's absurd to have a town where it is essentially impossible for a college student with an honors degree to get a job and pay rent, but I guess Santa Cruz is a pretty absurd place.

Many of you are assholes. I'd like to think you know who you are, but I'm incurably optimistic.

Everybody who said that there must be better jobs in Santa Cruz and that she's just not trying hard enough can take a flying fuck at everybody who said that going to India proves she can't be poor. It is kind of fascinating to see so many people living in alternate realities, though. Do any of you live in famous ones, like where the Nazis won or something? How do you get Internet access to the real world, where Santa Cruz is drastically oversupplied with worthless labor and living in India is essentially free?

It's clear, John_Mace, that you are a fucking cock, based on your willingness to make absurd, unwarranted and inaccurate inferences about people based on your most likely flawed understanding of their Internet presence, so I won't belabor the point. Allow me to just assure you that sven doesn't consider working an inconvenience except inasmuch as everybody would consider working a shit-ass menial job one doesn't enjoy for fuck-nothing wages while in possession of an actual honest-to-goodness college degree which theoretically is supposed to qualify you to get the kind of rewarding and enjoyable employment which doesn't appear to even fucking exist an "inconvenience." I find it hard to believe that even you would kiss the rod in that instance. You arrogant fucking cock.

Fruitbat, upon reading your suggestion that going to college to study philosophy is essentially worthless, and the immediate implication that the only worthwhile fields of academic study are those which immediately lead to big, exciting industries and that the liberal arts aren't worth a pot to fucking piss in, I feel it is only my duty to note that you, and people like you, are exactly what is wrong with this country, and exactly what is causing the great American slide away from culture, away from values, and away from being the Land of Fucking Opportunity Where Everybody Can Do What They Want To If They Try Really Hard, and into being a barren, desolate Blade-Runnerish corporate state where we will all slave like, well, slaves, for the great military-industrial complex as it grinds our souls into the dirt. While you sneer at anybody with the slightest desire to learn something not immediately renumerative, the bubbles are bursting, and the people who learned Computer Science while I learned Theatre are selling vacuum cleaners and grading standardized tests, further putting paid to your unbelievable attitudes. Please leave at once and never come back; you are robbing America of what makes it great. I don't like you and do not want you in my country, which is supposed to be a good place to live.

--p

[passengerpigeon]

p.s. Fuck you alice_in_wonderland whose post I did not see because I neglected to refresh the preview. That money is sven's inheritance, and likely the only such inheritance she will see. She could spend it, and then she'd never have a chunk of change that large again, or she could save it and eventually spend it on making a movie, which is her fucking dream. What are you suggesting? Perhaps more to the point, what the fuck is wrong with you people?

--p

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by passengerpigeon

Fruitbat, upon reading your suggestion that going to college to study philosophy is essentially worthless, and the immediate implication that the only worthwhile fields of academic study are those which immediately lead to big, exciting industries and that the liberal arts aren't worth a pot to fucking piss in, I feel it is only my duty to note that you, and people like you, are exactly what is wrong with this country, and exactly what is causing the great American slide away from culture, away from values, and away from being the Land of Fucking Opportunity Where Everybody Can Do What They Want To If They Try Really Hard, and into being a barren, desolate Blade-Runnerish corporate state where we will all slave like, well, slaves, for the great military-industrial complex as it grinds our souls into the dirt.

As lovely as that rant is, and as much as I agree with it (I, who studied art), I have to point out that fruitbat did concede that pursuing your dreams (by studying film if that's your passion) is not a bad thing. Actually, I don't think anyone here is saying that, though it may have sounded like that at first.